I think it’s the other way around: somehow we tried to build ourselves a civilization without children at all. I think in most human cultures, children are considered an important if not primary concern. Not having children well into adulthood is a modern privilege—one could even characterize modern childless adulthood as merely an extension of our own childhoods. But by starting to normalize childless adulthood, we’ve made the most normal and natural thing human beings do come across as a weird cultish type of social deviancy.

Logistically, extended families are a good idea. But I don’t think they stop people from putting their children first in terms of life priorities. On the contrary, a culture where parenthood rather than childless adulthood is normal is one where talking about your kids is a universal common ground you can share with other adults. (People need to have lots of kids for extended families to be normal—everyone will have grandparents but not necessarily aunts and uncles). Maybe you’re just observing one of these (sub)cultures from the outside.

>Not having children well into adulthood is a modern privilege—one could even characterize modern childless adulthood as merely an extension of our own childhoods.

this.

>Logistically, extended families are a good idea.

My fiancée and I have discussed buying a duplex, and moving her parents or mine (or both) into the other half. Looking into the future of what elder care will look like for them ... it's not pretty. A nursing home in a city I don't live in, staffed mostly with people that aren't even from this country (nothing wrong with that, generally, but it's something to be considered). For them it would be the best option, moving in with us. They get to see their grandkids, and we get to see them as they sunset their lives.

There's a difference between using kid-talk as a way to find common ground and bond with other people, and being literally unable to talk about anything but your kids. That latter bit actually does happen with a disturbingly-significant number of my friends who are parents.

The main commonality among parents I know who are afflicted with this problem is that they have no or few relatives living nearby. Those who have relatives (especially their own parents) nearby seem to be more well adjusted. While they still talk about their kids a lot, they can at least speak about other interests and events unrelated to the kids.

One of my friends who also is able to talk about other things is a freelancer and is not a workaholic. I suspect number of hours worked to be correlated here too.

Don’t people do this regardless though? Most people mainly talk about themselves and their interests. Kids are just a very common interest.

There are also a lot of people out there who only talk about work, or tech, or sports, or who hooked up with who, and anyone else who doesn’t share that interest will be bored to tears hearing them go on and on and about it.

It's hard not to talk about the most dominant thing in your life, and only a few people have the skill of being genuinely interested in the priorities of other people.

Some people are boring about their hobbies, some are boring about people, some are boring about work, some are boring about their kids.

If you find the conversation boring just remember they are probably just as bored at you droning on about blockchain or whatever it is you are keen to talk about.

This is a fair point. Taking it further, I also think it may just be that people with kids find "kid talk" to be a good default, safe topic of conversation with other people who have kids, so 50% or more of cases it actually makes them more interesting to those other kid-having people they can bond and empathize with.

Whereas I, who am not interested in that stuff, end up mentally putting them all into a single "boring" bucket, while the guy who can't stop talking about his 24-pack of Soylent gets his own separate "boring" bucket.

> 50% or more of cases

Definitely 'or more'. Something like 85% of adults 35+ have children. It's a pretty reliable low-effort conversation starter that immediately gets you a point of commonality with someone.

I don't have kids, but am involved in the lives of young relatives and am generally interested in questions about how to raise a child in ways that lead to them being competent, well adjusted humans. To me, parent talk seems to fall into two broad categories: discussions about raising children in general, and anecdotes about some supposedly funny thing that a particular child did last week. The former I find interesting, and I can engage in these conversations for hours. The latter bores me to death (and when the child being described is present I actively try to derail the conversation, as I hated listening to embarrassing stories about myself as a child and imagine most children feel the same way even if they lack the courage to voice that opinion to their parents). This is the difference between discussing the mechanics of a blockchain and discussing some anecdote about Coinye West rebranding as Coinye. I'm not too knowledgeable about or even particularly interested in cars, but I can listen to a mechanic talk about different types of engines and be genuinely engaged. I can't be genuinely engaged by somebody talking about the new paint job they put on their muscle car last week. I can recognise that others seem more engaged by anecdotal narratives than discussions of underlying systems, but I still think this distinction is different than simply being interested in one broad topic like "children" or "blockchains" over another.

It's just random small talk. It's the equivalent of talking about goofy stuff you run across at work. Or that you really like programming language X for <these subjective reasons>. A lot of people use sports for this too.

A good portion of the discussions on even this website are on the level of "I painted my car red last weekend". The articles are oftentimes better than this, but not always. Any fashionable piece of tech tends to have articles devoid of intellectual effort. E.g. back when NoSQL first came around, or just about any article about microservices.

Huh, I have the opposite opinion. For context. I am relatively young in the workforce, and also don't have kids nor immediate plans to have any.

I find general discussions about child development less interesting than humorous personal antidotes while parenting. Specifically when talking to my coworkers over lunch. Kids do stupid things, and hearing about the stupid things of the newest generation from my coworkers perspective can be a fun and interesting break from software engineering work we usually engage in. Where as a technical (some might say "deep") discussion about parenting and child development as a process feels more similar to the stuff I already grind at day to day.

Agreed. I do remember reading somewhere that the average current full time working mother spends more time with her children than a housewife in the 50s. Children used to go outside and play and have more unstructured time. I feel like there is this whole odd child-centric culture in the US. It is bizarre how many young adults I meet nowadays who have not been left without adult supervision for more than 15 minutes their entire childhood.

Most of my friends are from childhood. For the ones who have children, about half of them have turned into uninteresting people who are incapable of carrying a conversation about anything other than their children. And some of them were extremely interesting beforehand. A few have snapped out of it when their kids have turned 3-5, but most seem stuck forever.

When I go to visit family and family friends outside the US, they all have a bunch of kids but none of them have this disease where they can only talk about the kids. But there's also much more family support nearby and societal norms allow the children to be more independent.

> When I go to visit family and family friends outside the US...

I was raised outside the US, and this has been my experience as well. My friends/family outside the US with kids do talk about them sometimes, but it's usually blended with other anecdotes, like "We were going on a trip to this place, and Timmy was well behaved for a change (eyeroll)".

In the US these conversations tend to be more along the lines of "Timmy had underwater basket weaving practice, so we had to drive 5 hours to take him, and he threw in the car on the way there and back. Did I mention he's getting really good with those baskets?"

Agree with CalRobert that this could very well be because of stingy PTO and parental leave policies in the US which seem to have been designed with hard-driving male car salesmen in the 1960s as the target group.

We're American but live outside the US. Honestly our parent friends in the US seem sad and exhausted by comparison- the cult of workaholism is terrible for families, and the (guaranteed month of real pto/decent parental leave/shorter commutes/million other little things that make life less precarious) add up.

Wow, I don't think I had ever realised that connection; you're absolutely right. I guess if you don't live with an extended family, then more flexible work hours, or even 50% work (which is common in Europe I hear) makes a huge difference. Ha, more parental leave will make for less boring parents in addition to everything else :)

While I agree with your later point about having larger families leading to a healthier mix of time spent, I cant agree with your first point.

Yes, most parents talk a lot about their kids and that can be annoying if you don't have kids. Most single people are just as annoying though. You can talk about your kids or you can talk about your vacation, or your job... for the most part people will find it interesting if they relate and boring if they don't. I don't think there's a qualitative difference there between parents and single people, just different audiences that will be receptive to what they're talking about.

> Most single people are just as annoying though.

I don't know if that's fair. I talk about my kids too much, no doubt, but only one of my (not single, but childless) friends is annoying that way. He likes to smugly point out what he did this weekend that had nothing to do with kids. I make a point of not discussing my kids or family life with him, and he still makes it a discussion point. Most other friends in my circle are pretty relaxed about the kid thing, either because they have kids, or because they know that kids are just people and therefore part of our larger social group, so discussing them is okay.

I had a coworker once who was a pickup artist. Talking to him was a LOT more annoying than talking to the parents I worked with.

I agree what you’re saying is a problem, but it isn’t universal. Anecdotally the trend seems to match living preferences: parents in central cities tend to be less myopic about their kids, parents in the suburbs more so.

For my wife and I, the book “Bringing Up Bebe” was really influential in how we thought about kids before and after we had them. It’s a perspective shift kind of like this: your newborn human can’t talk, can’t move, doesn’t have any hobbies, interests, or friends. Rather than bend your life around that, why not invite this child into your life, to join in your hobbies, meet your friends, etc.

That may sound silly but it’s actually a pretty influential idea to latch on to. We don’t have a schedule wrapped around our kids, or weekends wrapped around our kids. We go places we want to go, and do things we want to do, and include the kids and tell them what we’re doing and why and invite them to join the fun. The great thing about kids is they’re pretty much up for anything, so they usually love this and jump in :)

I think, as an adult, you also have to make a conscious choice to keep up your independent life.

Losing your independence is something that happens to people for various reasons - you see it sometimes when people get married, and then they withdraw from all their old social life and kind of retreat into each other. It’s a lot of pressure to be someone’s entire world... I haven’t seen many of those couples stay happy.

I think that’s the part of having kids that’s hardest. Because they do have needs and do have to be accommodated, it can be easy to just worry about taking care of them and give up on everything else because it’s not as easy as it used to be to maintain your independent life. But it’s a choice you make, and in my experience it’s deeply worthwhile.

This is offensive. People talk about what they’re passionate about, and who are you to judge someone who is passionate about parenthood? It’s condescending. You could apply that same logic to anyone who talks about anything to a degree more than you deem it to be worthy of. I hope you someday get some perspective on life and learn how to appreciate people who are different than you are

I try to avoid telling unsolicited stories about my kids, but what else am I supposed to answer when people ask about my weekend? It's not that I'm mistaken about how exciting my kids are, it's that other people are mistaken about how exciting (for them) my weekend could possibly be!

Despite not having children, I like hearing about my coworker's and friend's kids. Complaining about them can get old, but funny stories and things they are proud of are great to hear. I don't think I'm unique in this.

I don't mind -- and am often interested in -- cool/funny things about my friends' kids, but the complaining... ugh. I get that kids are far from being all rainbows and sunshine, and I would never begrudge my friends the occasional (or even more than occasional) venting session, but after some threshold of complaining I just want to say "maybe you shouldn't've had kids if all you can do is complain about them".

Give me a fucking break, this is so ridiculously sanctimonious.

Eh, you’re thinking way too hard about this imo. It’s a biological thing. Having a kid takes you back to a level of animality that probably only sex gets close to—you’re tapping into a bilogical instinct and you’re ruled by instinct—that’s why people talk so much about their kids—there’s really not too many experiences in everyday life that have such a fundamental psychological and biological effect—as soon as you have a kid nature has wired you up to put that kid before everything else —just look at how a mama bear will react when you get between her and her cubs, human parents are not so different, so obviously their intense focus on their kids seep into their social life.

It’s probably not something varianece in social structure will change since it comes from a fundamentally biological place.

Can you elaborate? What exactly is wrong with parents talking to you about their kids? Kids are a big part of our lives. We're telling you about our life.

I think what you're saying is that you want us to be interested in different stuff, more along the lines of what you're interested in, because you're not interested in kids. That doesn't sound so much like a social problem to me as a simple personality mismatch.

> Can you elaborate? What exactly is wrong with parents talking to you about their kids?

I'm not sure I can, but let me try. Some of my coworkers will chat to me for five minutes about watching that new Scorsese movie, and maybe make plans to hang out after work. Let's call this Group A. Some other ones will talk to me for twenty minutes about how their kids are really into Frozen 2, and how they dressed up as Elsa for Halloween. They also never have time to hang out. Let's call this Group B.

It so happens that none of the people in Group A have children, and that's really my problem with it. It's not really that I care whether or not anyone has kids (none of my business, really) -- but it seems like the people I overwhelmingly have no interest in listening to or talking with always end up being the ones that have kids. And so I end up wondering if this divide is inevitable, like of your (hah) sibling comments seems to say.

Like pg notes in his essay, there's a good chance that there are members of Group B who are parents but you don't notice because they're not talking about their kids all the time.

Eh? I said that all of Group B are parents in my explanation.

But as others have pointed out, you're ignoring those of us in group A who like to talk about our kids, but also about films and hobbies and interests and all the other stuff you like.

I mean, look, it's possible your world is populated by a discernable "Group B" who "only" talk about kids and "never" hang out after work. But that's not a representative sample. Most of us parents have both lives and kids, and express both in our public lives.

I think if you look harder at your B subjects, you'd probably find that they do the same thing. I bet they talk about their new Teslas, and kitchen renovations, and vacations, and other stuff that you'd be presumptively interested in even as a single person. But because those are "family" activities I'm guessing you're lumping them in with the "kids" bucket and... maybe just refusing to engage a little?

Again, it doesn't make you a bad person to hate kids. But if you do, at least recognize that it is you that is doing the isolation here. Parents are more interesting than you might think.

They meant there are parents in Group A. You might be talking to someone (who is a parent, but low-key) about a new Scorsese film, and think "this here's an interesting person, talking about interesting things!" You aren't thinking about the fact that the person you're talking to is a parent.

Why would you care about hanging out with coworkers after work? I've never understood that mentality.

It's normal to be friendly with people you meet, that often leads to friendship - which is convenient. Certainly it's more fulfilling to work with friends than mere acquaintances IME.

Because some people have coworkers who actually grow into friends outside of work. Why is that so hard to understand?

Don't you feel pity for Group A? The most important thing in their lives is a movie and hanging out? They're just killing time. What's even the point?

Why would you make a throw away account just to repeatedly insult people for not having kids? That's extremely sad.

Not a throwaway. Are new members not allowed?

If I'm insulting anyone, it's only out of genuine concern rather than intent to denigrate. I don't want them waking up one day at 45 realising they've missed their chance and have 40+ long years of emptiness and regret to reflect on their mistake. I don't want them observing the demographic changes around them with overwhelming guilt for their doing nothing.

I want them to experience the joy and fulfilment of family. Parenthood fundamentally changes people. I see it. You do too.

I didn't even know Paul Graham had kids. I don't recall them playing much of a part in his business, his essays, his creations, etc.

So how exactly does that show the biggest problem you have with kids?

Alternately, for some reason you laser-focus on the topic for some reason and you can't help but let it fill the entirety of your perception. This appears in Facebook a lot where people complain about baby pictures or anecdotes and somehow ignore the 99.99% of absolutely irrelevant inanity that the rest of their feed is ("Oh you ate at a restaurant...wowwweeeee"). It happens in loud restaurants when people filter out enormous volumes of ambient sound to focus on the sounds of a child sixty feet away. When someone has some sort of hangup about children, it's amazing how large it can appear in their perspective.

It's basically two worlds:

People who have kids (and people who really want kids) and people who don't (and people who don't want). They can't understand each other and most of one camp think the other camp dull and crazy.

It's just pov, and yeah, I keep distances from people with kids when the kids are around, because very possible they will leave their kids to me to gain a couple of hours to themselves.

> I keep distances from people with kids when the kids are around, because very possible they will leave their kids to me to gain a couple of hours to themselves.

I recognize that you certainly have your unique circle of acquaintances, but in general I find the above statement to be extremely improbable. Not only would I never leave my kids with an unwilling babysitter, it's actually the opposite -- you have to convince me that you are a safe choice.

I've seen both, and anecdotally suspect that it correlates with economic status.