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Re:What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? by rayiner on Saturday December 14, 2019 @10:23AM (#21789889)
Your logical error is assuming that it’s so obvious what “vot[ing] against [one’s] own interests” means. Maybe a stable free market government with a strong cultural and religious framework is in everyone’s interest, and the “massive industry” exists to convince people of that fact?
Re:What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? by faceplanted on Saturday December 14, 2019 @10:51AM (#21790079)
This was like the archetype of a partisan argument. You two managed to go through why the sides don't like each other's worldview or the way it's expressed, and then stopped the second it came to discussing any real world issues. And I mean both of you as well, you could've given examples and data about why your system might be in anyone's interest but you didn't and it would've been the perfect time for him to reply with examples and data in favour of his, and neither of you even tried, it just stopped.

It's fucking amazing.

Re:What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? by skrebbel on Saturday December 14, 2019 @12:20PM (#21790615)
> You two

Who two? Every next comment was written by a different person.

Re:What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? by faceplanted on Saturday December 14, 2019 @03:13PM (#21791885)
I was mistaken.
Re:What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? by rayiner on Saturday December 14, 2019 @02:38PM (#21791639)
I’m not trying to convince anybody of that world view. My point is more modest: people can reasonably disagree about what is in the “best interest” of various groups, and therefore there is a difference between “convincing people to vote against their best interest” and “convincing people that a particular world view is in their best interest.”
Re:What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? by analog31 on Saturday December 14, 2019 @01:49PM (#21791278)
Just for the sake of disclosure, I'm as partisan as they come, but...

Partisan arguments tend to go poorly on nice civil web forums, and I'd expect to attract the attention of the moderators if I were to start one.

Re:What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? by tensor on Saturday December 14, 2019 @12:43PM (#21790793)
Actually, this is obvious. Voter votes for person who says they will do X. Voter doesn't understand the implications of X. Person gets elected, does X, fallout ensues. Voter now complaining about the consequences. This is a very obvious factual observation of voters voting against their own interests. It's not something up for debate.
Re:What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? by AnthonyMouse on Saturday December 14, 2019 @01:20PM (#21791081)
But is that what actually happens? Witness the abysmal approval ratings of Congress as a whole while every district continues to approve of and reelect their own representative.

Because people love it when their representative brings home the pork but they hate it when the other guy does it.

It's not possible for people in one district to elect a representative who could individually eliminate all wasteful government programs, but it is possible for them to send in somebody who will at least bring them back a proportionate share of the loot from the heist. Is that not rational behavior absent some coordination mechanism to get all the other districts to stop electing kleptocrats at the same time?

Maybe better would be to vote for someone willing to do that while also pushing for structural change to remove those incentives, but that's assuming there is any candidate running with that position.

Re:What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? by klipt on Saturday December 14, 2019 @11:19AM (#21790241)
> religious framework

The founders who wrote the First Amendment clearly disagreed with that.

Re:What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? by rayiner on Saturday December 14, 2019 @08:14PM (#21793713)
The opposite is true. It is ahistorical to look at the Constitution as protecting only an individualistic form of religious liberty, merely individual freedom of conscience. At the time of the founding, America was comprised of communities practicing different religions (mainly different forms of Christianity). But within each community, there was a strong, very public religious framework. Indeed, several states had established churches into the 1800s. The First Amendment was designed to protect that status quo. Not to eliminate public religion, but to keep the federal government from erasing those diverse communities by establishing a national church.

The “freedom from religion” reading of the first amendment is, besides being atextual, utterly non-sensical. It reads the Framers to have banned, sub silentio, practices with respect to public religion that were utterly routine at the time the amendment was adopted.

Re:What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? by klipt on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @12:30AM (#21822110)
So if some US states established Islam or Judaism as a state religion, you'd be fine with that?
Re:What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? by specialist on Saturday December 14, 2019 @11:13AM (#21790199)
He's referring to political campaigns. GOTV, agitprop, advertising, r#tf##king, etc.
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Re:What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? by rayiner on Saturday December 14, 2019 @03:04PM (#21791816)
The other way to frame it is that people need convincing to forgo what feels good in the short term to pursue what works best in the long term.

As to whose culture and whose religion: it’s not clear to me the specifics matter so much as the existence of strong, broadly-shared social norms. My Bangladeshi immigrant family doesn’t share a culture or religion with Pat Buchanan, but there was frankly not a lot of daylight between their views on how people should live in society.

And you’re right in one respect: a society that emphasizes social norms will leave some people out. The social norms can be evolved, of course. Bangladesh, for example, is making progress in evolving the social norms surrounding participation of women in the economy. (In terms of labor force participation rate, Bangladesh today is where the USA was in 1950. On the other hand, we’ve had not one but two women as heads of state.) But a society that emphasizes individual self determination will be more inclusive and more responsive to social change. But these are trade offs in the structure of a society and people can reasonably disagree about what serves the best interests of the vast majority of the people.

Re:What Happens After Prisoners Learn to Code? by xyzzyz on Saturday December 14, 2019 @03:28PM (#21791979)
As to whose culture and whose religion: it’s not clear to me the specifics matter so much as the existence of strong, broadly-shared social norms.

It definitely is nice when it is the case, but I don't think it's necessary for America's future to be successful. Certainly, for the first 150 years of its existence, the United States had very widely varying cultures and ways of life throughout. The Puritans in the north lived differently than the Scotch-Irish, who lived differently than Germans in the midwest, who lived differently than the pioneers in the west.

The difference between now and then though was that back then all those people were free to live as they felt like, and if they didn't like it, they could pick up and leave to form new communities, like for example the Mormons did when faced with hostility of people from their origins. Now, however, the mass media and powerful federal government is dictating the one and proper set of moral and social norms, and the correct way to live. People aren't free anymore to do what they want if the feds don't like it, even if their state doesn't have an issue with. Even the states expanded their reach into determining how people should live. This wouldn't have been a problem if, like you suggest, the enforced way of life was broadly shared, but it clearly isn't.