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Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by xwdv on Sunday December 08, 2019 @02:30PM (#21737690)
Monogamy is still one of the biggest societal pressures that people struggle to escape, at the expense of their own happiness and emotional well being. And in some cases there are real punitive consequences for not conforming to it. You should not force exclusivity wherever it does not occur naturally. Not everyone can be 100% fulfilled from one relationship.
Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by hacknat on Sunday December 08, 2019 @03:28PM (#21738073)
I do think that monogamy should be considered "ideal" in some sense (especially for raising children), but I do think we need to understand that not everyone's upbringing, which forms their (surprise, surprise) attachment style, will allow this to be a healthy constraint.

The statistics, obviously, bear out that a large number of, even happy, people cannot hack it under the constraints of monogamy. Either monogamy needs to be better defined or we need to drop it as a societal pressure/constraint on relationships. Probably a little bit of both is needed.

Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by User23 on Sunday December 08, 2019 @04:45PM (#21738578)
The reason monogamy is ideal is because human beings are a tournament species[1] that's smart enough to have realized that emulating a pair-bonding species results in better societal results. Mainly because if we just followed our animal natures a huge percentage of men (far greater than now) would be shut out of the mating market. Having a large population of young males with no mating prospects hanging around is harmful to society for many reasons, the most severe being one of the charismatic winner types deciding he wants to sell them a dream and putting them to nasty work.

[1] https://www.uh.edu/engines/epi674.htm

Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by EliRivers on Sunday December 08, 2019 @03:34PM (#21738110)
I do think that monogamy should be considered "ideal" in some sense (especially for raising children)

Naively, I'd wonder if children could be raised better by a group of adults rather than a couple.

Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by hacknat on Sunday December 08, 2019 @03:45PM (#21738172)
Certainly a couple, by themselves, is the 2nd worst choice for raising a child other than a single parent, by themselves. Children need to be raised by lots of caring adults. However monogamy does provide a sort of back-stop safety protection against adults prioritizing their own relationships with each-other over their relationships with their children (who are naturally less interesting and invigorating relationship partners). Non-monogamous raising of children probably has its own advantages and dangers, the point is to make sure that children are always protected and nurtured to the best of their caregivers' ability. I worry about diffusing responsibility for raising children too much, at the expense of them developing a secure attachment. However, as long as all the adults in a child's life are prioritizing that child developing a "secure" attachment style, I could give a shit who is fucking who.

And yes, this is very much my business, because how you raise your children dictates what kind of society my children will live in, so please raise them right.

Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by MiroF on Sunday December 08, 2019 @06:04PM (#21739066)
> And yes, this is very much my business, because how you raise your children dictates what kind of society my children will live in, so please raise them right.

Sure, but I'd like to see if your conjecture is actually backed up by the evidence. I too might be initially inclined to believe that monogamous partners are better for childcare, but I'm guessing that I am also epistemically biased towards that assumption, just as a product of the societal norms I've grown up with.

Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by User23 on Sunday December 08, 2019 @04:37PM (#21738518)
This is one of the second order negative effects of low birth rates in the developed world. Low birth rates mean low numbers of aunts, uncles, cousins, and other kinfolk who have a vested genetic interest in the well-being of your child. That's something that money just can't buy, no matter how great your nanny or pre-school or whatever is. And that's assuming you haven't moved away from your family, which many of us have.
Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by shantly on Sunday December 08, 2019 @03:56PM (#21738256)
Two adults earning incomes and a third (and maybe also a fourth) keeping house and taking care of the kids sure seems a lot better for everyone concerned from my perspective (normal 2-parent household with three young kids).
Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by hacknat on Sunday December 08, 2019 @04:12PM (#21738346)
I don't necessarily disagree, but lets be wise to the dangers that can present themselves in this situation, and then lets make sure to legislate against them (seriously).
Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by memling on Sunday December 08, 2019 @03:39PM (#21738131)
aren't all children raised by groups?
Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by xwdv on Sunday December 08, 2019 @03:38PM (#21738125)
I feel it should be considered reasonable for people to have a stable main partner whom you spend most of your time with and raise a family with, while still having other partners who may only be temporary but you can pursue romantic interactions with. This is basically the idea behind the ethical non-monogamy trend we see on some dating apps.

The problem is people attach too much ego to their relationships and jealously easily flares up when there is a hint that their partner may also be attracted to someone else. There are also financial motivations for catching your partner in an affair and immediately leaving them.

However, the fact remains that people already have these kinds of relationships, they are just not talked about or openly accepted. It’s a bit like being a gay man 40-50 years ago.

If it weren’t for society priming people to instantly dump a partner upon discovering they are a practicing non-monogamist, people might be forced to think for themselves and decide if that’s something their okay with, and I suspect many people might be.

Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by malvosenior on Monday December 09, 2019 @09:36AM (#21742963)
I don't think most poly people advocate for cheating (which is what you're doing here). You also make it sound like people are being "tricked" by society into not liking it when they find their partner is cheating on them, when that's the most natural and human response you can expect when you find out you've been deceived at the highest levels.

The only way having multiple partners is ethical is if they are all aware of each other and it was agreed upon before hand that the relationship is open. What you're advocating for is extremely unethical.

Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by brians on Sunday December 08, 2019 @11:42PM (#21740450)
> ethical non-monogamy

...

> partner upon discovering they are a practicing non-monogamist

...

> ethical

Nah.

Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by Jamwinner on Monday December 09, 2019 @10:35AM (#21743462)
I find demeaning others life choices publicly online to be anti-ethical, but what do I know. Please be nice.
Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by malvosenior on Monday December 09, 2019 @10:46AM (#21743573)
I don't think the post you're replying to is demeaning life choices. The grandparent is advocating for cheating and calling it ethical. The comment you're replying to is correctly stating that it's unethical to have an open relationship when your partner doesn't know it's open. Key quote from the grandparent:

> partner upon discovering they are a practicing non-monogamist

You don't "discover you're a practicing non-monogamist", that's just a euphemism for finding out you're being cheated on. You either agree to non-monogamy or you don't but the only ethical time to give someone that choice is before you've started practicing it behind their back.

> I find demeaning others life choices publicly online to be anti-ethical, but what do I know. Please be nice.

It's actually the grandparent that keeps demeaning people's life choices by calling monogamy "boring", "vanilla" and "on the wrong side of history".

Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by Twinklebreeze on Sunday December 08, 2019 @02:35PM (#21737728)
I agree. I'm of the opinion that monogamy is only harmful when it is considered the default. People/couples should put thought into this aspect of their relationship, and choose what is right for them. Even if that means monogamy.
Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by xwdv on Sunday December 08, 2019 @02:42PM (#21737784)
The irony is that modern society has made great strides to promote relationships between all combinations of genders of individuals... but any suggestion of non-monogamy is still struck down with shame or castigation almost reflexively, with little to no thought. It’s getting better though.
Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by r00fus on Sunday December 08, 2019 @02:57PM (#21737885)
There is no irony other than the fact that you think it's ironic. Monogamy is the default for same-sex couples as well. Orthogonal issue.

The issue with non-monogamy is that a pairing (2 people) is the smallest working group, and that's what the game theory of dating proves to be most durable and successful. A 3-person working group requires at least 3x more relationship work, and a 4-person pairing requires 6x as much.

Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by Twinklebreeze on Sunday December 08, 2019 @03:05PM (#21737947)
Polyamory doesn't have to be a three or four way free for all. One person could have two independent partners. Some partners will come and go, while others stay. It is more work, but it doesn't have to be as bad as you make it out to be.
Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by ngngngng on Sunday December 08, 2019 @03:15PM (#21738004)
It is ironic. I have no data on this, but I would guess that having sex with the same gender is far less common than having multiple sexual partners, so why have we worked so hard to normalize and legalize same gender relationships while giving no thought to polygamous relationships?
Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by empthought on Sunday December 08, 2019 @03:33PM (#21738099)
The legal frameworks have to do with property transfer and responsibility for raising children, both of which are much more complicated in relationships with more than two partners.
Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by xwdv on Sunday December 08, 2019 @03:03PM (#21737938)
People have partners on the side very successfully until they are caught, and arguably those side relationships would be more successful if they did not have to keep them a secret and their other partners agreed to the open nature of the relationship.
Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by damnyou on Monday December 09, 2019 @12:22AM (#21740563)
That relationship work you're talking about has some side effects that might be desirable, such as making you a better person.
Re:Emotionally focused couple therapy can help love last by jimbokun on Sunday December 08, 2019 @07:42PM (#21739594)
No one is forcing you to get married.