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Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by mastazi on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @01:10AM (#21699999)
> The modern Wikipedia hosts 11–12 times as many pages as it did in 2005,but the WMF is spending 33 times as much on hosting

This doesn't make any sense to me. Why would the number of pages and hosting costs be linearly correlated? I can't think of any other scenario besides Wikipedia where this would be expected to be true.

Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by busymom0 on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @01:59AM (#21700185)
Also hasn't the cost of hosting gone down significantly since 2005?
Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by logifail on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @02:47AM (#21700369)
> Why would the number of pages and hosting costs be linearly correlated?

How would one expect them to be correlated?

As an aside, a friend of mine relaunched an ecommerce site in March. Wordpress + WooCommerce, stripped of fluff.

His hosting plan costs him $3/month, including tax.

He told me his site took just over $60k in revenue in the first 6 weeks.

Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by darawk on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @02:53AM (#21700381)
I assume the operative word for him was 'linearly' not 'correlated'. But cost/pageview is sublinearly correlated, so spending growth should be even slower than a linear projection.
Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by mastazi on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @03:26AM (#21700527)
I just wanted to point out that the article mentions the number of pages, not pageviews, which is part of the reason why I find that statement so bizarre.
Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by elect_engineer on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @05:52AM (#21701168)
Full disclosure: I am the author of the Wikipedia essay "Wikipedia has cancer".

See https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=21700802 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/Wikipedia_has_C...

This is the first time I have seen any comment saying that I should have listed page views instead of pages. I hadn't given it much thought until you brought it up, but I don't see any reason which I shouldn't remove the pages statistic and replace it with page views. I do want to make the essay as accurate as I can, and criticisms/suggestions are a big help in doing that. (you never see the flaws in your own writing).

Can anyone think of a downside to me changing it to pageviews?

Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by Sacho on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @07:35AM (#21701605)
Sure - I would argue that bandwith costs are only a tiny fraction, and the real cost is in stewarding all the existing content(page numbers) - e.g. more servers = more admins, older content/tools need maintenance, etc.

I think what is happening here is that the server costs argument is weak as a first argument. Maybe x33 expenditure is high, but I know WP has grown, and it's hard to quantify how that growth translates into expenditure - it's easy to imagine higher reliability, more accessibility, more need for maintenance of established products and so on as WP matures. If I happen to like WP and am willing to give them benefit of the doubt, why wouldn't I trust that their engineering team knows what they're doing? You haven't established your credibility as an SRE(or enough facts) to really shake that initial goodwill.

Once I view your initial argument as shaky, I am naturally more inclined to view the rest of your arguments skeptically(or just outright ignore them).

From an outsider POV, your two strong arguments are: - I want to donate to just WP because I don't care about the rest; As the non-WP fraction of expenses grows, there will be a tipping point where the "waste" will erode my willingness to donate - Even though there are growing development costs, WP tools have stagnated, core problems aren't addressed, new features aren't being used(another signal of "waste")

I think if you lead your essay with those arguments, the server costs argument would be better received. It's much easier to comprehend "Out of $1 I donate, only $0.50 goes to WP", and as an experienced WP user you speak from a position of authority on the second point. From there, it's easier to convince me that WP is also being wasteful in server costs.

In general though, I think you need more evidence put forward to really convince an outsider that WP is wasteful - more comparisons of overall spending vs just-WP spending, more examples of development stalling or going in the wrong direction. The essay may be convincing to an insider who already is aware of the problems, but from an outside perspective it's light on evidence.

Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by elect_engineer on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @02:35PM (#21706061)
Full disclosure: I am the author of the Wikipedia essay "Wikipedia has cancer". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/Wikipedia_has_C...

I don't think I have ever hinted that Wikipedia is spending too much on servers. I consider that part of Wikipedia to pretty much be the best managed part, and everything they do increases reliability, helps with disaster recovery, or makes the site faster. I even said "It costs a certain amount to have reliable servers, run a good legal team, maintain the core software, etc. But none of the things that the WMF needs to do require ever-expanding spending."

In my opinion, spending 1,250 times as much to do basically the same job is all the evidence you need. I wouldn't squawk at 5 or 10 times as much, but 1,250 times as much? At that point the burden of proof is on the person who claims that such a huge increase in spending was necessary.

Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by Faark on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @12:58PM (#21704832)
Yes, calling out concrete examples of waste would make it a lot easier to understand if this is about actual mismanagement or about a different ideology were priorities are / how narrow the mission is supposed to be.
Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by elect_engineer on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @03:06PM (#21706352)
Full disclosure: I am the author of the Wikipedia essay "Wikipedia has cancer".

Calling out concrete examples of waste also has a downside. It usually results in the discussion going off into the weeds about whether individual expenditures are justified. There are many people who focus on individual examples of waste. I chose to focus on the big picture -- overall spending growth.

Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by FabHK on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @08:27AM (#21701936)
> Can anyone think of a downside to me changing it to pageviews?

No, it makes sense.

Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by interactivecode on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @05:11AM (#21700989)
right, because you pay for traffic (or results of traffic) and not just having the pages online.
Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by logifail on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @02:56AM (#21700392)
> spending growth should be even slower than a linear projection

Indeed.

In my experience in several organisations, as soon as there is even an inkling of "spare money" in (part of) an organisation, humans will invariably starting coming up with creative ways to spend it. This may end badly.

If you start with the premise: "there is [almost] no budget, what can we do anyway?", then you often get the most creative and useful solutions.

Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by sleavey on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @02:50AM (#21700376)
I guess images and videos get larger and more frequent on pages as they are updated.
Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by smcl on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @06:13AM (#21701245)
This makes sense - and additionally as higher speed internet becomes more prevalent, it's almost become expected to serve more images and videos and for those to be higher quality.

That's a total guess, but in general I'm of the belief that a higher hosting bill does not necessarily imply waste or that something nefarious is afoot

Re:Wikipedia Has Cancer (2017) by ksec on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @09:02AM (#21702188)
I am wondering, If in 2005 it cost them $5000 to serve 1.4B page views.

Could this be done in 2015 with $2500 / $1000 or even $500.