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Re:Why I Voted to Sell .ORG by tptacek on Thursday November 28, 2019 @11:56AM (#21658701)
Help me understand what you mean by "worse than naive" here. Richard Barnes isn't going to see a dollar of this money and wouldn't need it anyways. I understand people disagreeing with him, but, despite being automatically disinclined to extend good faith to anything published at CircleID, I don't understand where anyone derives bad faith from this piece.

I thought it was tremendously useful, if only to understand what was in the minds of the people who unanimously voted to sell .ORG.

Re:Why I Voted to Sell .ORG by gwd on Thursday November 28, 2019 @12:35PM (#21658953)
> Help me understand what you mean by "worse than naive" here.

"Naive" in this context generally means they were overly trusting when there was no evidence to suggest trust was warranted. I'd interpret "worse than naive" as saying that they are actually evidence to the contrary.

The logic presented is, "We need more money, so we sold it to this private equity firm. But don't worry, they're not going to try to squeeze lots of money from it."

The starting point for any for-profit company -- no matter how ethically run -- is that they buy things because the expected value to them will be higher than the cash they paid for it. We must assume that the expected value of PIR to the equity company is higher than the amount they paid IS for it. Which means, either IS is actually getting less (or at best the same) money than they would have for keeping PIR, or it means that Ethos is going to charge significantly more than IS is. The fact that Ethos bought PIR is prima facae evidence that it's a bad deal for either IS or for the internet as a whole.

I mean, there are other possibilities, but none is really good. It's possible that someone at Ethos capital actually did want to do IS a favor, and way over-paid for PIR. But that's just a form of embezzlement; I certainly wouldn't feel any better to know that .org was bought by someone who was either incompetent or a criminal.

If you want to set up a long-term self-funding organization to do good rather than making money, you don't do private equity; you set up a foundation. Ethos, or whoever wants to make the world a better place, could provide a loan to such an organization.

And even if you do decide to buy something, you put your promises in writing in the form of a contract.

And even supposing Ethos really does mean all the things they say. Suppose something happens and they go bust and have to liquidate their assets. What happens then?

There are just so many red flags here, that "too trusting" doesn't even begin to describe it.

Re:Why I Voted to Sell .ORG by jfim on Thursday November 28, 2019 @01:54PM (#21659450)
Your scenarios are not mutually exclusive. To maximize their expected value, you say that they could:

1. Earn less than IS would

2. Charge more than IS would

It's actually:

1. They could earn less than IS would, because they're generous, incompetent, or some other reason

2. They could earn more than IS would, because they increase the prices, run PIR more efficiently than IS would, increase the number of registrations more than IS would, or some other reason

In scenario two, which is the most interesting, they could jack up prices, but they could also run the business better, such as running the business more efficiently or driving more business through advertising. I agree with you that the former is likelier, but not necessarily the only reason why the deal would have a positive expected value for Ethos. It could be that the deal is a win-win one, where IS gets more money than they'd be able to make out of PIR, and yet, Ethos comes ahead too by running it better than IS could.

Re:Why I Voted to Sell .ORG by wpietri on Friday November 29, 2019 @02:21PM (#21666215)
If you have some evidence that this is the case, feel free to give it. But they've already outsourced the running of the registry to somebody else, so any obvious efficiency gains have presumably already been taken. And if they haven't, there's no reason to think a fresh-minted PE company would do any better than hiring a competent manager.
Re:Why I Voted to Sell .ORG by cartoonworld on Thursday November 28, 2019 @12:44PM (#21659010)
I think Richard's piece leaves out everything of substance. I don't understand how this helps the ISOC mission, users of .org, the public interest of the Internet at large, or anyone at all except of course Ethos Capital.

PIR, the registrar in question generated $48 Million in support grants for ISOC in 2018 tax return. He's trying to make the case that selling this $50million revenue from grants is worth it. He think the governance of .org and the maximum possible cost increase will be fine.

What possible reasons has he given for any of that?

He vaguely indicates that it'll be fine, and instead asserts that $28/yr could be affordable? It is, but why not just jack up the price in the first place, if its a money thing? They could be getting $100-Million in ten years, why sell it off to a private capital investment firm with no track record of "Governance" and a mandate only to private shareholders and investors?

If you happen to check https://ethoscapital.mu/investments/ to read all about their clear mandate for Governance (whatever that means the the context of "Exposure to a Diversified Pool of Unlisted Assets") hopefully the irony[0][1] of their using the .mu (Mauritius) tld is not lost on you. Sorry if this last bit seems petty, but just wow. What about any of this makes anyone think this doesn't look like a gift to private equity? I would like to see the sale price.

[0] https://business.mega.mu/2013/07/29/internet-210-government-...

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20141110042124/http://news.islan...

Re:Why I Voted to Sell .ORG by simias on Thursday November 28, 2019 @01:03PM (#21659141)
>I thought it was tremendously useful, if only to understand what was in the minds of the people who unanimously voted to sell .ORG.

That felt more like a smokescreen than a true insight into the process. It's a lot of fluff and empty grandstanding while not really justifying the sale in any coherent way. The way I read it he's basically saying "being a registrar for .org is our biggest activity and one that gives us a steady and stable income but we also want to do other things, so we decided to get rid of that for some short-term gains".

If that's truly what was in the mind of the people who voted to sell they need to test the water supply in that building, there was clearly something messing with their reasoning skills.

If there's truly a grand master plan that makes sense behind all of that then they should share it. For now the only plan that makes any sense to me involves several thick layers of corruption.

Re:Why I Voted to Sell .ORG by pmontra on Thursday November 28, 2019 @12:03PM (#21658757)
> Help me understand what you mean by "worse than naive" here

"Worse than naive" doesn't necessarily mean "bad faith" but possibly causing losses to other people without deriving a gain can still be "worse than naive". It's a quote rephrased for kindness.

Re:Why I Voted to Sell .ORG by wpietri on Friday November 29, 2019 @02:19PM (#21666208)
I mean what I say: I don't think he can possibly be as naive as this piece suggests, and I don't think any of the plausible alternatives interpretations (e.g., incredibly negligent, corrupt, a fool) is better than this babe-in-the-woods confection.

If you'd like to assert that he's really this naive, feel free to make a case for it. Or if you have some interpretation that's better, I'd be glad to read that as well.