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Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by lacker on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:46PM (#21651304)
This doesn't seem sustainable, to me. Just basic evolution. As long as some subpopulation has a birth rate above replacement rate, that subpopulation will grow, until the total birth rate at least returns to replacement.

I feel like human culture has still not reached a steady state after the invention of birth control. I don't know what will happen per se, but it seems like the world of the future will have to be more encouraging of parenthood, in some way, than the world of the present. I hope it is a way that is consistent with the model of a modern free Western democracy.

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by swagasaurus-rex on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @03:42PM (#21651894)
You blame it in birth control, but I see it as a totally rational and emotional response to an unbelievably high cost of living.

People can't afford kids. Not enough time, not enough income, even hiring help is out of most people's budget.

People are being squeezed and the middle class is shrinking. No wonder they don't want kids whose lives will be worse than their own.

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by theworld572 on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @04:33PM (#21652327)
Sorry I'm going to be contrarian here but if "people can't afford kids", then why is it well established that poorer people have more kids while richer have fewer? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility).

Answering my own question.. I think the reason people are having fewer kids is more to do with urbanisation and all the social and cultural changes that come with that.

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by thewizardofaus on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @04:51PM (#21652503)
I surmise the following reasons:

Poorer populations have less access to sex education.

The government pays $850 a fortnight to a single mother, on top of a $5000 baby bonus and various other incentive schemes. Poor social classes see this as an easy means of money compared to working a "dead-end" job.

Maybe they have kids to escape their reality. People cope in different ways; drugs, drinking etc. Maybe they desperately want to live through their kids.

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by toomuchtodo on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @05:13PM (#21652686)
> Poorer populations have less access to sex education.

This is likely an accurate thesis based on macro and micro studies.

TLDR Education, empowerment (contraceptives), labor force participation = decline in fertility rate. Provide access to all of the above, fertility rate drops off.

https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#what-explains-the-... (Fertility Rate: What explains the change in the number of children women have?)

Outside of Africa, there are only a handful of countries where the fertility rate is > replacement rate.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-per-woman-un?tim...

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by Nasrudith on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @06:14PM (#21653129)
I would sum it up as counterintuitively "Because they can't afford not to have kids." Urbanization is certainly a factor in how affordable kids are as in rural contexts they essentially paid for themselves via farm labor.

In the world wide context of rich vs poor in the third world it is often the case that your children are your social security. This may also be culturally enshrined as a literal legal duty for offspring to care for their parents no matter how alienated they were.

It would be technically accurate yet misleading to say Social Security and pensions are anti-family. Ensuring care in old age regardless of savings or offspring ability to provide undermines the obligatory support network role. Of course modern perception of family has evolved in the same sense that marriage is seen more about love instead of an economic transaction.

And that is before any conscious or subconscious k/R strategy. Essentially "elites" are incentivized to get the "best" heirs and dedicate more resources to them. Those struggling and incentivized to reproduce enough to have some survive and be successful.

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by jelliclesfarm on Thursday November 28, 2019 @01:59AM (#21655179)
It’s very simple. If you are poor, your needs can be met with a small budget. If you are rich, (upper middle class..truly wealthy people don’t have to care)the ‘fixed costs’ are higher.

You are lower middle class and Disney world is fine to take your five kids and you don’t have to break the bank. But if you are upper middle class or even borderline rich, every additional expense due to extra progeny is many times over. Your savings can’t be stretched if there is a dip in earning potential. It’s difficult to ‘step down’.

A very simple example is mortgage/owning house vs renting. Less riskier to be laid off as renting capacity is elastic vs losing mansion and cost of living of a certain lifestyle is inelastic.

And this pattern appears in every aspect of life.

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by raducu on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @03:58PM (#21652070)
Of course it's rational, and I don't think anybody suggests we ban contraceptives, but the fact is having children was never a rational choice(except for treating children as pension funds), children were just a byproduct of sex being pleasurable.
Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by xamuel on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @03:04PM (#21651513)
Relevant article [1] and corresponding HN discussion thread [2]

Daily reminder that in an evolutionary context, the last 200 years are the blink of an eye.

I'll paste a comment I made there: "If an antibiotic doesn't wipe out its target, then its target's numbers will be devastated in the short-term, but in the long-term, its target will evolve immunity to the antibiotic and ultimately recover. If you think about it, contraceptives are extremely similar to an antibiotic whose target is human beings. We're still living in the short-term when the antibiotic seems to be effective."

[1] "The heritability of fertility makes world population stabilization unlikely in the foreseeable future" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S109051381...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20360626

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by namirez on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @03:14PM (#21651621)
> If you think about it, contraceptives are extremely similar to an antibiotic whose target is human beings.

We don't really know that. There are environmental stressors that lead a species to adapt; there are also stressors that cause a species to go extinct. I think time scales are really important here. Bacteria evolve much more rapidly than humans. But the rate of creating new antibiotics and contraceptives are probably in the same ballpark.

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by xamuel on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @03:21PM (#21651678)
The newness of the contraceptives doesn't matter as long as they're still opt-in. No-one's suggesting humans will evolve condom-melting sperm. There's no need: a much easier trait to evolve is the desire to have kids.
Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by raducu on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @04:29PM (#21652302)
But the "desire to have kids" is such and abstract and complex issue; nature already has it figured for us, we have the desire to have sex, to nurture and to like kids is secondary.

It would be impossible for nature to evolve such a complex, conscious yet instinct-like feature as "I want to have kids for the sake of kids... right, where do I start... I need a fit SEXUAL partner(so that I have healthy kids)... but just to have kids... totaly not for the pleasure of sex ... economy be damned, I want kids... kids are extremly hard to raise by modern standards... scratch that... I need to have kids no matter what".

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by quotemstr on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @06:22PM (#21653179)
> It would be impossible for nature to evolve such a complex, conscious yet instinct-like feature as "I want to have kids for the sake of kids..

We have such an instinct now. Women (some men too, I guess) in their 30s frequently attest to a feeling that their "biological clock" is ticking and that they feel a yearning to have kids for the sake of having kids. This desire is probably still secondary to the raw sex drive in humanity, but evolution is great at taking secondary drives and turning them up to 11.

Keep in mind also that evolution isn't necessarily genetic. Humanity's unique advantage is culture. We can change our "software" much faster than we can change our genetic "hardware". Some culture groups, e.g., the Mormons and the Amish, already have fertility rates very much above average. As long as fertility is heritable, it doesn't really matter whether the mechanism is genetics or culture: the future belongs to the people who reproduce.

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by raducu on Thursday November 28, 2019 @01:42AM (#21655107)
Women have started having children throughout the aeons at a very early age. It is onĺy in the last 80.000 years that humans have made the conscious connection between sex and having children.

Womens fertilty declines sharply in their 30' and it is through conscious understanding of that fact and imitation that they think "their biological clock is ticking"; they consciously understand that it is now or never, that all their friends have children and that their looks and chances of attracting mates are fading.

Also, I'm willing to bet that people in the "my biological clock was ticking" camp have much, much lower birth rates than average(probably close to 1), which is an indicator rhat they actually felt pressured not to be childless rather than a genuine desire to have childreN.

I absolutely agree with your culture argument, I am just claiming that modern culture will go extinct unless we incorporate higher birthrates into it, not that the human species will go extinct.

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by xamuel on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @08:58PM (#21654043)
>kids are extremely hard to raise by modern standards...

Those thoughts don't seem to have been going through this guy's head: https://www.sunnewsonline.com/i-slept-with-1400-girls-impreg...

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by raducu on Thursday November 28, 2019 @05:00AM (#21655962)
Would raising children in Africa fit "modern standards"? The guys story seems fictitious at best and there is no chance he actually had sex with two women a day and impregnated one woman a day.

The random chanches of conception for unprotectected sex between two young people is 1 in 20.

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by xamuel on Monday December 02, 2019 @10:57PM (#21689802)
You're implicitly assuming each woman only had one single encounter with the guy.
Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by lallysingh on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @04:00PM (#21652094)
Except that humans are using it on themselves voluntarily. Instead of 'evolve immunity', we could just stop using it.
Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by raducu on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @04:18PM (#21652222)
You mean volutarily stop doing it or banning contraceptives?

If it's the first, there's absolutely no way that would happen, if it's the latter, what's next, we ban abortions, women working, force people to marry, we ban the pull out method, the calendar(I'm not trying to build a straw man here).

A balanced and fair solution to the declining birth rates would be so complex that I'm convinced no human designed system would work; perhaps we could turn ourselves into a AI run perfect human zoo in the future, but as long as humans are in the decision loop I think it is impossible.

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by raducu on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @04:06PM (#21652142)
But it's not the human species that's at risk(except for some world-ending catastrophe that we cause), it is the modern world ending that is at risk.
Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by raducu on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @03:51PM (#21651989)
There's always the option that we will die off, that we are experiencing a great filter.

Perhaps we have changed our environment in such a great way that it is impossible to avoid it?

We have the(correct) climate change narrative that makes people think declining population is a good thing, instant communication and very rapid dissemination of information and tools which enable a "winner takes all" situation(which means 1% of the population has the means to comfortably raise 100 children, which they won't, while 99% can only raise 1.X children, which they are doing), birth control, anonymous and tolerant societies where it is ok to be childless(and it really is ok), pursuit of happiness(which was never a thing in human history), non-religiousness(all major religions value having children), long working hours, "good parenting"- which is a good thing for the children, but it makes raising children incredibly expensive in money and time, both of which most people don't have, the fall of monogamy, the ridiculous real estate prices, the rise of mental dissorders -- all of which lead to below replacement birth rates.

Don't count on subgroups to save the day, their higher birth rates will plummet as soon as we hook them up to our values and we free them of their oppressive values.

Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by Thorrez on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @03:34PM (#21651821)
The US isn't the only place with decreasing fertility rate, the worldwide fertility rate is also decreasing. Look at the table on the right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate
Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by polski-g on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @02:59PM (#21651462)
You are correct. The country is currently projected to be majority Amish by 2200.
Re:US births decline for fourth year in a row, CDC says by achillesheels on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @03:15PM (#21651627)
I think you address a very salient point vis-a-vis birth control. There are many women who otherwise would be bounded to natural reproductive cycles that have created a never before seen phenomenon in society, and that is the childless self-sufficient woman. This leads to lower future-time orientation in the population since consumption is not compounding as fast as if it were directed towards progeny. Society becomes more self-serving as a necessary effect, with accompanying lower moral standards to boot, eg The Kardashian Effect.