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Re:Can You Copyright Work Made by Artificial Intelligence? by marcus_holmes on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @03:04PM (#21642109)
Ok, but in the monkey-selfie case, the monkey was not considered to be a tool of the artist (the camera was, but as the artist wasn't operating the tool, that didn't matter).

I think the more important question is about ownership and society. If an AI can produce value, does that value accrue to the owner of the AI?

If yes, then we're in for another round of "let's sack all the workers and replace them with machines". Historically these haven't been fun, and have produced massive inequality, but eventually they produce richer, better-educated societies.

If no, and we say (for instance) that "all value produced by an AI is public property", then we'd head off the beaten track, and possibly to a more equitable society. Or somewhere different, at least.

Re:Can You Copyright Work Made by Artificial Intelligence? by rahuldottech on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @03:21PM (#21642267)
Hm. In the monkey case, I think a case could be made that a monkey is "a conscious being" and "capable of true thought" and stuff along those lines, and hence something (someone?) who can own rights to their work.

Can the same be said for AI/ML as they exist today? I'm not sure.

The fact remains, AI needs to be developed and trained by someone, and that completely affects the resultant "artwork". That's why people use the "photographer and camera" analogy. Does the Dev not deserve credit for their work?

(A thought experiment that I just came up with, not sure if it makes sense: Say you and I are locked in a room for a prolonged period of time. I tell you a bunch of stuff and you make some art based on it. Following the photographer/camera analogy, can it be said that you are my "tool"? Can I claim rights to what you come up with?)

Re:Can You Copyright Work Made by Artificial Intelligence? by modeless on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @04:48PM (#21643093)
> think a case could be made that a monkey [...] can own rights to their work

This was actually decided already. PETA sued on behalf of the monkey, and lost. The courts ruled that only humans can own copyrights. However, the issue of whether the photograph is copyrighted by the photographer or in the public domain was not decided. Personally I think that the photographer could likely win the copyright based on the effort he put into the setup, if he got a good enough lawyer.

Re:Can You Copyright Work Made by Artificial Intelligence? by marcus_holmes on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @03:55PM (#21642575)
The Dev, yes. As an independent act of artistic creativity, I don't think anyone has any problem with the dev owning the output of the AI.

To answer your thought experiment: Should an Art Teacher get copyright rights on all their students' work? (what you propose is effectively art college)

Agiain, to my mind the problem comes when someone (let's call him The Baron) employs a hundred Devs to make an AI that provides cheap legal advice, based on public-domain court records. People get cheap legal advice (society wins). The Devs get paid for their professional labour. A million lawyers go out of business. The Baron becomes astonishingly rich.

Should The Baron get all that value? Should the Devs? Should the out-of-work lawyers?

Re:Can You Copyright Work Made by Artificial Intelligence? by apocalypstyx on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @07:42PM (#21644273)
>Should an Art Teacher get copyright rights on all their students' work?

In quite a lot of cases they do (or at minimum the right to reproduce and distribute such at will without compensating the originator of the work).

https://www.trademarkandcopyrightlawblog.com/2012/05/bear-an...

https://designobserver.com/feature/who-owns-student-work/126...

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/who-owns-student-artwork_b_64...

Re:Can You Copyright Work Made by Artificial Intelligence? by marcus_holmes on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @08:16PM (#21644444)
partly this is because education establishments insist on copyright assignment.

My mother got hit with this when she tried to patent the seamless sweater invention she had - suddenly the university stepped in and said it was their invention. Sure enough, she'd signed over all copyright when she started the course.

but just because it happens now doesn't mean it's morally correct. In an ideal world, do we want this?

Re:Can You Copyright Work Made by Artificial Intelligence? by jboy55 on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @08:59PM (#21644658)
In the art school sense, it actually impacts one of the most critical questions an art student has of themselves,

"Do I try to make my career defining art now or do I use this time to explore a variety of subjects and mediums?"

The fact the artist doesn't own the copyright to this early work tilts the question to the latter statement.

Re:Can You Copyright Work Made by Artificial Intelligence? by taneq on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @08:18PM (#21644450)
I think this is the crux of it. We need to decide at what point an AI becomes "a person" capable of owning things.
Re:Can You Copyright Work Made by Artificial Intelligence? by dillonmckay on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @08:52PM (#21644628)
Unless you recorded the oral stuff or wrote it down, I don’t see how you can claim a right to it.
Re:Can You Copyright Work Made by Artificial Intelligence? by dillonmckay on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @08:50PM (#21644620)
So, if I setup an HD CCTV camera in a fixed position and livestream sunsets from the beach, I cannot claim copyright of the stream.

I don’t see why this would be different from an AI.

Re:Can You Copyright Work Made by Artificial Intelligence? by amanaplanacanal on Tuesday November 26, 2019 @09:42PM (#21644836)
Choosing the location and direction to point the camera is the creative part.
Re:Can You Copyright Work Made by Artificial Intelligence? by dillonmckay on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @01:53AM (#21645853)
Still not able to copyright that.
Re:Can You Copyright Work Made by Artificial Intelligence? by marcus_holmes on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @07:53AM (#21647414)
I'm still confused by Model Release forms. If I take a photo of someone, I own the rights to the photo. So I can publish it and make money. But they own the rights to their likeness, so they can sue me for money unless I have a signed form. Is that how it works?

If you streamed your sunset shot and I walked into shot, can I sue you for using my likeness without my permission?

And how does this work with DeepFakes? If I DeepFake Sting's head denying climate change, can he sue me for likeness rights?

Re:Can You Copyright Work Made by Artificial Intelligence? by amanaplanacanal on Wednesday November 27, 2019 @11:25AM (#21649222)
Model release forms are only necessary to use their likeness for advertising. If it is just art, no form needed. At least that’s my understanding.