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Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by hestipod on Saturday November 23, 2019 @08:18PM (#21617718)
I won't make it through the end of the year and it's all preventable. Nearly everything I see posted about suicidal people from non-suicidal people, and ESPECIALLY doctors get it wrong and avoids root causes in some self serving attempt to justify their failures or live with that existential fear. Most people I have known professionally when I was a provider, and personally since I became a victim, who were suicidal didn't have some unexplainable mental illness. Their depression and psychological issues were entirely rooted in real life things that could be solved or mitigated, but people, systems, society refuses to solve them because it costs money...and money matters more than lives. Very few people have primary, intractable mental illnesses.

I tried one last time to talk to my family recently...very right wing, faux Christian, self-righteous, bigoted people who think those in need are weak, didn't try hard enough, are to blame. They have never been decent people and I avoided them my entire adult life but was forced to grovel when my health got worse and I was denied official assistance. It's been nothing but misery and makes everything worse. It's a gravity well I cannot escape, I am powerless to do anything but scream online between gurgling breaths as the riptide takes me away and they seem to enjoy that power and getting me back for all that time I did avoid them. Despite a career seeing the worst people did to each other, you never want to accept those who claim to love you are that bad as well. But people show their true selves when they have power over others, when they have an opportunity to exercise their wills, when there is someone smaller/weaker/needier in their path...people will show you who they are every time. Every time.

I am not depressed because of some temporary situation. I am not suicidal because of a chemical imbalance. I had my health stolen, my finances decimated, and my life punched down on hard by anyone who was supposed to be there for me...for whom I would have been there. I am clinging to Maslow's bottom rung and losing my grip and nobody who can do anything cares at all. Everyone I have ever known who is suicidal has some real, actionable reasons like this underlying it. But all people say is "get help"..."take pills"...."meditate". That's all putting a bandaid over a gunshot wound and ignoring the trauma underneath because dealing with that is harder and costs more. People just aren't worth that to others. I am going to die angry and alone and they all know it and do nothing but antagonize, threaten, and make it about themselves. They have important things to do like rage at "liberals" ruining the world and how unfair everyone is being to Trump. Their kids and neighbors and everyone else are tools and threats to them, nothing more, they are so incredibly ego driven it's astonishing. They say "not with MY money" to everything social for others, even as they collect their social security or use subsidized systems. That's what matters to them...their own gain and power. Not me...not others. They are legion in this country. By an accident of birth I was both ruined and abandoned. Both rooted in selfish profit driven mindsets. Had I been born in the fist world the profit driven surgery likely wouldn't have even happened, but had it I would get social assistance. Not here...here I get to go live in a ditch or die.I am too old, too broken, need too much to survive and I refuse to suffer MORE because of this backwards culture so option B it is. Thanks Murica.

No SSRI or deep breathing solves those situations...and most people who end their lives didn't have to if people would do the right thing. But the right thing isn't profitable. So they push pills, write articles, cherry pick survivor-biased tales that show someone who "got better" who didn't really have any problems at the core. They show this as some enlightenment or evidence and hold it up but the light is focused on that and ignores the piles and piles of bodies underneath who were ignored or bypassed because it was too hard and not good for business. Most people don't care about you...they don't care about society...they care about themselves.

I had a nightmare just last night about a victim I recall from early in my career...in such a horrible personal situation...who died in such a terrible way. She didn't have to. She was pushed to it and then allowed to because nobody she reached out to would help. I've seen dozens like that...and not a single one of them had to die. Every one of them was failed by their family, by their neighbors, by systems...it's shameful. But enough about silly bleeding heart things like people and the planet and whatever. There are important things to do like get those likes, those dopamine hits, shut down those losers in a political argument or downvote someone to signal how wrong they are, make those dolla dolla bills convincing someone to buy that useless to society "product" or cash out big to someone else who will because those luxury status symbols won't buy themselves. After all anyone who is suffering only has themselves to blame and didn't want it bad enough or step on enough other heads to get it. Losers.

Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by donretag on Sunday November 24, 2019 @01:37AM (#21618810)
There are some things you simply cannot control, like who your family is. You cannot focus on them. As far as others go, they might not be doing things in the right way, but they are trying in some capacity. Some do not even have that. Everyone is dealing with their own problems as well.

We are thinking of you here on HN. I can do nothing for you, but would always make time for you.

Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by downerending on Saturday November 23, 2019 @10:09PM (#21618096)
The situation with your family sucks, no doubt.

What would improve things for you right now?

Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by hestipod on Saturday November 23, 2019 @10:35PM (#21618175)
I am so stressed, distressed, angry, in pain that I don't even know at this point. I need stability so I can assess things. See what the baseline is without all this bullshit here. I need to get back to Warsaw where I lived before and my only friends and reliable doctors are,or at a minimum some European city with dense services, affordable healthcare, and transport so I can live within a small area. This country is too costly and lacking in services in this rural hell, and I don't trust the healthcare anymore in general. But anything will require money. I cannot earn well or at all because my health requires all my energy to endure most days except for basic household stuff and even some days I don't move much at all. I simply cannot dig down like one can when they were a 20yo and scrap and build a new foundation. I don't know if I would EVER be able to work reliably...but for sure never full time.The money I have access to isn't enough for anywhere and there is no safety net. I have no insurance. When they ruined my health they took away my means to guarantee that financial security...and then denied assistance. Nothing went right.

People always think you should be able to do more than you say but my body is the boss and will fall out from under me and that takes my mental state with it...as you can see now. Nearly two years ago someone here offered me a very bespoke job part time with the ability to immigrate, but my health problems and personal tragedies (family betrayals and death of the person I loved most...one I may have been able to prevent had I been back there instead of across the world) all came at the right time to confound even THAT chance. Now things are even worse physically, financially, and mentally and my capabilities less. In a modern country I'd be on social aid so I could have stability and time to assess and long term help if I couldn't improve...not feel I would be cast out at any moment with no survivable path. Maybe I'd be like this for the rest of my days...maybe I can improve a little and do more. I can't know until I have that security and access to trustworthy doctors and systems...and those are not here in America.

Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by downerending on Saturday November 23, 2019 @11:00PM (#21618260)
This is very difficult, to be sure. Betrayal is a very hard pill to swallow, and the death of a loved one likewise.

You mention Warsaw as a place where things might be better. It looks like you could fly there from NY for maybe $300 on a good day. Is this a plan you could shoot for?

Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by hestipod on Saturday November 23, 2019 @11:05PM (#21618279)
I am not in NY and it costs a lot more than that as a rule. But that's not even the issue. getting a flight is not a block. It's how to survive long term financially when there. How to legalize without some immigration means which is mostly predicated on money. How to do all that with poor health and people actively fighting you and trying to take away more agency. It's a lot more than just "moving". "Moving" has been my plan since the day I came back from there. I'd have done it then if it was realistic. If money were no object I would have never left, or once here packed up myself and my cat and moved back. Back then my health wasn't good but wasn't as bad and I might have had even some good days. Now it's worse all I want is mostly not miserable days, mostly survivable days. I would accept that. But I cannot even get that.
Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by aalleavitch on Sunday November 24, 2019 @07:25AM (#21619990)
You are not alone. It is not you that is broken, it is the world around us that is broken. Things cannot continue the way they are. This system we live under, it corrupts everything. It inserts a fundamental tension into every human interaction we have, it drives a wedge into every relationship. It rips us apart and turns us against one another.

But it doesn't have to be this way. There are other ways to live, there are other worlds we could have. We don't have to incentivize predation. We don't have to reduce human life to dollar values. We can make a world that does not find its fundamental basis in self-interest, we can have a world where everyone is not fundamentally, irrevocably alone.

I recommend that you try to see if you can find a local chapter of the Democratic Socialists of America, or any local group looking to further the establishment of a Solidarity Economy. Don't throw your life away because you know this world is wrong; make it right. We are out there, and we need you.

Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by hestipod on Sunday November 24, 2019 @08:40AM (#21620343)
A broken, broke, barely breathing husk who doesn't have the energy for basic tasks often cannot be an activist. I don't have the ability to do that in addition to surviving. While I agree with social democracy I am not someone who is in a position to fight politics. My stress coping ability is paper thin. My basic needs are in constant threat and shortage. It also will not change here in time for me. My only chance is getting help and moving. I am not throwing my life away...others did that. This country and its capitalistic nightmare ruined my life. I need away from it in the way I need away from my narcissistic, cruel family. I'd happily accept a reprieve...a way out...I am not wanting any of this. But I am not throwing away life by refusing to hurt more and more physically and mentally...that's not life.
Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by aalleavitch on Sunday November 24, 2019 @09:58AM (#21620769)
Your story alone is enough to make you an effective activist. There is nothing more powerful than lived experience. You may be surprised at the amount of help that you will be able to find if you go to the people who are fighting to prevent what you've gone through from happening. There is support out there for people who truly want things to change.

I understand the desire to get away. I understand the reluctance to believe that things can change. But you have the opportunity to help stop this. This world fights hard to make you believe that you are without agency, but that's because learned helplessness is what maintains the status quo. Collectively, we have a very real power to shift the course of society. There is more momentum building behind an end to this nightmare than you likely realize. Do you not at least want to find out if you could have made a difference?

And you might also be surprised with just how much more tolerable the pain in life becomes when you are near like-minded people who genuinely care about their fellow man.

Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by hestipod on Sunday November 24, 2019 @01:02PM (#21622085)
I think this is the last post I am going to make because I find myself feeling nothing but anger, resentment, defensiveness as even well meaning people don't get it and keep saying things I feel I have to explain and justify because for some reason I still care about proving I am not a jerk, crazy, wrong somehow and fighting the idea that this is my fault or I am not doing enough or I somehow failed. I did not. I was failed.

>There is support out there for people who truly want things >to change.

A lifetime of experience tells me otherwise. What is out there is insufficient. I don't need promises of a brighter future. I don't need cheerleading. I don't need vague ideas of what should be or what someone believes can be. I need practical realities now.

>Do you not at least want to find out if you could have made >a difference?

This is deeply offensive and makes me want to scream. I DID make a difference in the ways I could. I spent my life helping in my work and doing what I could in my personal life. I walked the talk of social issues. I was ethical and honest. That I am now needing help, needing rescue rather than being the rescuer. You don't ask a drowning person to hold up a sign as they go under to highlight the dangers of swimming in the ocean. That I don't have the bandwidth to add MORE work and stress to an already overwhelmed life does not diminish that. I did my part.

End of line.

Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by aalleavitch on Sunday November 24, 2019 @02:07PM (#21622526)
I didn't mean to talk down to you or invalidate your completely justified response to your own situation, I apologize. Nor did I mean in any way to belittle your accomplishments or the amount you have already done for others. You are absolutely right to feel the way you do; you were failed, this is not your failure, you have done nothing wrong.

You have no obligation to anyone. I'm just trying to offer you an option of where to look for aid with those practical realities. Maybe you have already thoroughly exhausted your options, but this is just one more place to reach out to if you haven't already. I don't know where you live, but it's possible they may have a similar program at your local chapter: https://dsabuild.org/medicaldebt

Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by hestipod on Sunday November 24, 2019 @06:35PM (#21624286)
And I am sorry if my pain and desperation made it sound personal. I have always been a "helper" and hyper empathetic so a big psycholgical part of my problem is NOT being able to do anything useful for those in need and raging at the injustice all around. But I can't help anyone else if I cannot help myself. I think you for the well meaning...but that's not enough anymore.
Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by bmer on Sunday November 24, 2019 @02:57AM (#21619047)
Hello hestipod.

I have been in your situation, and I have had certain privileges you do not have which helped me. So, I do not want to tell you: "just do XYZ and you'll be better". In fact, I agree with you that suicidal tendencies are not due to mental health issues; rather, they are due to deep societal injustices. Since I can't fix those, I can't truly help you. There is a reason why indigenous communities are particularly hard hit by suicide...

I am also not going to try and convince you to not go through with it. That would be selfish on my part. I don't want to have to deal with the hard truth that someone chose to stop existing because of the shittiness of this world.

I am however, going to ask you to reconsider what meditation is. I don't care about any of the religious crap around it, and I am also not going to reduce it to "sitting down and breathing deeply". "Meditation" must happen in every moment. I think about meditation as a sort of self-awareness which provides acceptance, and through acceptance, resilience.

I recommend reading Jon Kabat Zinn's "Where You Go, There You Are".

I had an allergic reaction to the idea of acceptance when I first came across it: things like "opium of the masses" came to mind. This is not that sort of acceptance. This is the sort of acceptance that provides internal stability when there is no source of external stability; it is the sort of acceptance that lets go of the disappointment and frustration, and then frees mental power to consider: "what now?". It's the acceptance that provides resilience which leads to improvements in social justice (and social justice starts with small, everyday victories: moments, individuals, and then society). Or the sort of acceptance that provides the freedom to explore things you would have been too scared to explore otherwise ("a person who has nothing to lose...").

In this vein, I think mathematics is an amazing way to spend time. Not only does it not deal with people, but it also helped me see a...largeness...to the world that I find hard to describe. I suggest starting from here: http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~hehner/FMSD/

In a sense, you're free. You're free of the "chains" of life. Breathe deep, not because you're meditating, but because you should relax: the chains of life no longer bind you. Let your mind roam now, as it is meant to roam. Build palaces of systematic ideas, which lead to results that are surprising and enjoyable. Explore the world around you: forget about space, but instead consider the amazing orchestra of chaos that is biology. How the hell does a cell work? Layers upon layers of beauty that is hidden because of the shit of our human world...

Or...pick something else to study that isn't what _this_ stranger cares about. Devote yourself to it. Do not let yourself be disappointed with the boring, care only about the exciting. Let the excitement of finding the amazing fuel your devotion.

Dare I say: "don't end the freedom you have earned by going through this pain early; use it, before you end it"?

Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by hestipod on Sunday November 24, 2019 @08:27AM (#21620266)
It's not freedom to "accept" being permanently and worsenginly sick and homeless or constantly living under that threat. It's not freedom to "accept" being in severe pain every day. It's not freedom to be in the "present" in those situations. Freedom is having positive choices, agency, hope. This stuff is nothing more than a psychological trick that I cannot sustain to say "I am powerless and this sucks but that's ok" and I will be some stone in the water or other bollocks. It's not ok and I will not keep living like that. I refuse. I don't WANT life to end but I cannot and will not live a life that's nearly 100% terrible and since the real and practical options to survive are denied there is no other path. I am not buddha and I reject that I HAVE to stay alive in this condition. I don't need something to do...something to study...as if I just lack purpose. Telling a drowning and tortured person to get a hobby or be in the moment is absurd. I need Maslow's bottom rungs secured. Everyone wants to fight for you not to die...but people will not help you live.
Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by bmer on Sunday November 24, 2019 @06:38PM (#21624300)
Okay, sorry for being presumptuous.
Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by hestipod on Sunday November 24, 2019 @06:42PM (#21624328)
I am a fool who can't help but read things hoping something good happens even when I am so upset I want to stomp out to have SOME control of SOMETHING. So I read your long reply before you edited it. I won't tear it down because you DID remove it. I just want you to know that's the kind of thing my family does...strangers have done...the unfair and wrong beliefs about me. It's only hopes and prayers, blame like that, and ONE actionable offer that life took away in 15 years. I am sorry it's so bad for you too. I am glad you have social assistance as a foundation. Everyone should have that net and it's what I most need and not having that is why I am so distraught and angry. I have always lived a life caring about the world, other people...animals (I spend part of my meager income on a cat that was one of 12 or so from 3 litters my family never cared for properly and never spayed/neutered and all died/disappeared from their garage but her, and I took her to the vet and make sure she is cared for since they don't seem to care half the time...having to adopt her out in the end is a great stress for me because I cannot guarantee her future with me here or not)...and proved it in my actions. Always. That I am falling to pieces now and cannot even manage myself doesn't invalidate any of that.
Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by bmer on Sunday November 24, 2019 @10:58PM (#21625352)
I didn't take my reply down because I didn't mean it, or because I thought it was wrong. I took it down because I felt that I didn't know enough about your life. I was finding multiple aspects of your response grating making it difficult for me to remain non-judgemental. So, I decided it would be better to simply "apologize and move on".

I find your comparison of me with your family to be extremely insulting, as you know nothing about my life.

The mistake I made, which in your eyes makes me as good as a bunch of right-wing misers, was to 1) suggest a key aspect of what my own therapy was based around, and 2) share with you what _I_ found was something useful in improving my "suffering".

However, you decided to take it as yet another sign of how people are judging you (Jon Kabat-Zinn has a lot to say about non-judgementalness too, and that was another key aspect of my therapy), missing the fact that you are judging others, and in particular in the course of this interaction, me.

I do not have the resilience, capacity, or training to deal with such judgements.

I think that you can read my first response in many different ways. You chose one perspective, and perhaps, in the future you may choose to read it in other ways. Apart from that response, in which I gave you what I felt were the most valuable things I had to offer to anyone, I have nothing else to give you.

I'll leave you with a quote from J. Kabat-Zinn's "Full Catastrophe Living":

> Acceptance does not mean that you have to like everything or that you have to take a passive attitude toward everything and abandon your principles and values. It does not mean that you are satisfied with things as they are or that you are resigned to tolerating things as they “have to be.” It does not mean that you should stop trying to break free of your own self-destructive habits or to give up on your desire to change and grow, or that you should tolerate injustice, for instance, or avoid getting involved in changing the world around you because it is the way it is and therefore hopeless.

> Acceptance as we are speaking of it simply means that you have come around to a willingness to see things as they are. This attitude sets the stage for acting appropriately in your life, no matter what is happening. You are much more likely to know what to do and have the inner conviction to act when you have a clear picture of what is actually happening than when your vision is clouded by your mind’s self-serving judgments and desires or its fears and prejudices.

Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by hestipod on Sunday November 24, 2019 @11:34PM (#21625491)
I don't know what you are on about or doing...the post you took down was full of insults and retorts to things I didn't say and simply wrong about me. It was cruel and projecting. You said several strange and aggressive things like I should stop pretending I care at all about other people, the planet, or animals...no idea where that came from nor is it true in any way. You said several untrue things what were oddly blaming. Now you say you weren't wrong and meant it and aren't sorry. I am just not dealing with that anymore from anyone, anywhere. I shouldn't have replied at all to begin with as I saw this coming. Take whatever shots you need to. None of it matters anymore. Goodbye.
Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by bmer on Monday November 25, 2019 @03:50AM (#21626442)
At this point, I am fairly sure you're baiting me...or, that's just me reading the worst in this interaction. Not sure. I'll ask the moderators to restore my post for the record. In any case, this has been an interesting learning experience.
Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by RandomTisk on Saturday November 23, 2019 @10:22PM (#21618131)
Have you applied for disability? Really hope you find a way through.
Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by hestipod on Saturday November 23, 2019 @10:29PM (#21618157)
Yes of course. Fought for it with lawyers for years. Denied despite evidence by a very biased judge. Appealed. Same judge denied again. The system is broken. I am out of credits to apply now. I have done everything you are supposed to and that people think works. It doesn't. It's just the same advice recycled and disbelief it didn't work...then on to blaming me for it...and me getting more upset and hopeless. Over and over. I know who I am and what I have done...but it doesn't matter.
Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by techdreamer on Sunday November 24, 2019 @06:18AM (#21619702)
It's me again. (Sorry).

"I had a nightmare just last night about a victim I recall from early in my career...in such a horrible personal situation...who died in such a terrible way. She didn't have to. She was pushed to it and then allowed to because nobody she reached out to would help. I've seen dozens like that...and not a single one of them had to die." I wonder if your earlier career gave you PTSD and if your current circumstances are triggering it?

You had a bad judge twice - that guy is probably retired now or has moved on. I wonder if another might be reasonable - what you need is some kind of stable income so you can get space and stability. Are there no advocates who could help some kind of claim for someone in your situation - free advisors? Don't set some kind of end of year deadline on yourself - an advocate might be able to do a lot for you.

Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by hestipod on Sunday November 24, 2019 @06:38PM (#21624297)
It's too late to edit and I need to just not read or post anything anymore since it never helps and makes me more depressed and angry seeing how true my assessment of the world is. But I couldn't stop worrying I made you feel bad should have expounded on my first sentence in my last reply. You have been there kindly since my first post here. I appreciate that. You are clearly a good human being. That's just not enough and it feels like anything I say to well meaning but ultimately unhelpful advice either makes me seem ungrateful, unwilling, or deserving of this decline. None of that is true but you can only take so much, only explain so much. Only refute so much. That always results in people giving up on you as if that's your fault. And I don't mean giving up on being nice...if niceness was enough I would be ok because I know some nice people. But they give up on anything that would really help. I am not setting any artificial deadlines...they keep making threats...and I live every day wondering when the hammer will drop. I have tried to prepare things so I CAN leave if an opportunity arises but so much is still wrong, lacking, and accessible. I have no agency here but to suffer...or end the suffering...and if they kick me out even that becomes harder with less options. I can't live like that on top of everything else.
Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by techdreamer on Monday November 25, 2019 @06:30AM (#21627167)
hestipod, You are a very kind person - worrying about me, with all your problems. Don't worry about me, (I was worried that I was upsetting or needling you after I posted). NONE of your problems are your fault. None of them. I just wish that there were some way soon of you getting the help you need.

Please don't worry about me, I've been through some things, (probably toughened my exoskeleton), (or something :). You are not unnoticed and I can only repeat I wish there were some real help that you will get. I am ok.

Re:What I have learned from my suicidal patients by hestipod on Sunday November 24, 2019 @08:34AM (#21620309)
You have been kind from the very beginning, but the sort of open ended questions and wishful thinking is rage inducing and makes me feel like a bad person and makes people turn on your harder when they upset you.

"Surely there is...why don't you just....there has to be...that sounds terrible what would help?" etc NEVER F^%#$ HELP! They are vague, obvious, useless advices or ideas. Things I have usually made directly clear I have done. The direct answers to needs are never heard. You answer questions and nothing...like it was all just to satisfy someone's curiosity. People give you absurdly obvious "advice" they have never enacted, and certainly not in such circumstances, and then tut when you don't accept it or it doesn't work. The truth is there have been many systems and people who could have helped...really helped...and they said "no". THEY decided that not me. I had my agency stolen.

Yes I have PTSD amongst many issues but that like the rest has been scoffed at and said to be "playing victim" or whatever other excuse. Yes the judges, "advocates, doctors etc have mostly been shit but people won't accept that because it's easier to say it's my fault and pretend that it was just an edge case and would never happen to them. I am NOT setting a deadline....THEY are!!!! I have no idea when the threats and drama will appear again or when they will be realized. I live in constant fear of it and have been pointlessly F&^%# screaming HELP ME for years now. The ONE, MAYBE actionable plan was derailed by MORE BAD THINGS. I need support....stability....it's not coming. It never comes. It's like some trickster god is playing with me seeing how far he can push me. And when you say "I CANNOT DO THIS ANYMORE" you get "hopes and prayers". I wish I had never made this F&%^# account or ever talked to anyone about this as it just brings more pain on already unsurvivable pain. F&%%& everything.