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Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by vorpalhex on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:47AM (#21607281)
Sasha Baron Cohen is a manipulator - that's the basis of his comedy, and for comedy, it's funny. It's not the person who I want to take cues on freedom of speech from.

Yes, you can go to a group of people and get them to sing anti-semitic songs, just as you can bluster them with an unlabeled map or have them fall prey to trivial parlor magic. That's a terrible basis for attacking basic human rights on.

He calls the openness of platforms a defect, and he would like to censor every single word before it is public - that is not freedom, it is authoritarianism.

I suspect he believes that most people are dumb sheep - this is after all how he made his money - and he sees himself as protecting the poor sheep. He believes that because his intent is just, his actions are just - that the end justifies the means. He is the most dangerous kind of strongman: the self-righteous kind.

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by mcguire on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:00PM (#21607433)
I suspect he is trying to repair his image.

https://youtu.be/tF_2QZo90lw

Kind of like Eminem and Michael Vick, it'll probably work.

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by nostromo on Friday November 22, 2019 @02:39PM (#21609221)
It's amazing how his past movies, made not that long ago, would be completely verboten today. Using racial and ethnic and homophobic stereotypes to make audiences laugh... and raking in millions for doing so.

And... it makes sense. Can you imagine if his movie portrayed a ridiculous caricature of a Jewish person, the way he portrayed a ridiculous caricature of a gay man ten years ago, today?

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by AlexandrB on Friday November 22, 2019 @03:03PM (#21609469)
Context exists. His movies used stereotypes but never punched down at those groups, instead using such characters to mock bigots.

So yes. I can imagine such a movie today. And it would be funny as hell.

Wait! Actually this already exists as a TV show, it’s called I Am America and Cohen frequently portrays a caricature of a Jewish Mossad agent.

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by nostromo on Friday November 22, 2019 @03:35PM (#21609777)
I agree in some cases, but Bruno specifically was not attacking homophobia, but was all about making fun of a ridiculous gay straw man.
Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by slg on Friday November 22, 2019 @02:19PM (#21609004)
It is funny that Why Isn't Sacha Baron Cohen Working Anymore video was posted just three months before his latest show started airing on Showtime. It is also weird seeing the video feature criticism of him from the ADL considering this speech was at his acceptance of an award from the ADL. It doesn't seem like his image needed much repairing after all.
Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by shrimpx on Sunday November 24, 2019 @12:18AM (#21618533)
With all due respect, you don't understand his comedy whatsoever. I suspect you believe Bill Hicks is also a misanthrope. These are extremely gauche interpretations, it's like saying Picasso didn't care about painting because he didn't paint realistic flowers and horses and barns like a "proper painter" would.

Edit: misspelling.

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by vorpalhex on Sunday November 24, 2019 @11:30AM (#21621412)
Cohen performed his bits without the audience knowing they were part of it - and he only shows the bits that had the outcomes he wanted (or were at least funny). There are more then a few security cam clips of the bits that didn't go so well - and I recommend finding them.

Cohen isn't a surrealist who is using a medium to convey the depth of life, he's just a comedian with an editing team.

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by shrimpx on Sunday November 24, 2019 @03:21PM (#21623072)
It's true he's just a comedian, but his comedy goes deeper than your run of the mill midlife crisis jokes at the comedy cellar or whatever.

Just like Bill Hicks, he's a political comedian that reveals hard to stomach truths. Unlike Bill Hicks who creates an abstract persona (of a particular kind of bigot, etc.) and then critiques it, Cohen astonishingly shows you a concrete instance.

Cheney autographed a milk jug he was convinced was used for waterboarding. Saying a joke about this on stage would be pretty funny, but Cheney himself autographed a waterboarding milk jug on camera and lamented about how much it would be worth as a collectors item.

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by corrys on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:19PM (#21607632)
> and he would like to censor every single word before it is public - that is not freedom, it is authoritarianism

He never said that. He said that a publishing delay just enough to filter out potential illegal content (snuff, hate speech are illegal under US law) would benefit the society overall.

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by manfredo on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:59PM (#21608109)
Neither "snuff" (unless you're talking about CSE or other specific categories) nor hate speech are illegal in the US. The supreme Court has repeatedly ruled on this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.A.V._v._City_of_St._Paul

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snyder_v._Phelps

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_in_the_United_St...

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by bduerst on Friday November 22, 2019 @03:56PM (#21609984)
That's because, unlike other countries, the US Supreme Court doesn't define speech that calls for imminent violence upon a person or group as "hate speech".

That specific type of imminent danger speech and it's expression are not protected by first amendment rights. It's right there in your Brandenbug v. Ohio.

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by manfredo on Friday November 22, 2019 @04:36PM (#21610351)
The above commenter wrote that hate speech was illegal. This is not correct. I'm not sure what you think I'm missing here. The bar for speech to be inciting imminent lawless action is pretty high:

> Portions of the rally were filmed, showing several men in robes and hoods, some carrying firearms, first burning a cross and then making speeches. One of the speeches made reference to the possibility of "revengeance" [sic] against "Niggers," "Jews," and those who supported them.

This was determined to be protected speech under the First Amendment.

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by deogeo on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:40PM (#21607877)
> hate speech are illegal under US law

False - explained by a 1st Amendment lawyer: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-white-first-amen...

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by bassman9000 on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:44PM (#21607927)
And who decides what's filtered? Unless it's the judicial system, don't want it.

If you have 2 opposing views, and one is delayed long enough, you've effectively censored it, in favor of the other.

Which is exactly what's going to happen. Once the dissenting view "passes filter", the news cycle is over, the unfiltered view remains in everyone's retinas, the filtered one ignored, despite any merits it may have.

This is just preparing the field for stronger, more arbitrary censorship.

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by mempko on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:47PM (#21607963)
Who is deciding which content is promoted now on social media? An unaccountable algorithm. Isn't this just the flip side of the censorship coin? Except now the truth is being censored and lies are being promoted because it's financially better for the publisher.

Wouldn't the most appropriate legal response to this be not allow social media companies to have any sort of recommendation algorithm and force them to have feeds that are linear in time of people who you follow?

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by bassman9000 on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:53PM (#21608047)
The appropriate response would be to take them to justice if law was broken, and for you not to use the platforms if you don't want to, as a free citizen.

The problem with the mixed approach is that these platforms get the official recognition they don't deserve, and the private censors we don't need or want.

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by Zooper on Friday November 22, 2019 @02:55PM (#21609401)
Smashing a speaker that deafens those around it doesn't inhibit free speech. Believing that building such a thing is an act of freedom is authoritarian.
[dead]
Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by core-questions on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:11PM (#21607550)
This is not exactly isolated to the far-right. It's anyone who is bad at arguing or finds themselves beaten logically and needs an illogical escape. We should call that out on all sides.
Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by commandlinefan on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:02PM (#21607451)
Uh, the person you're replying to doesn't appear to be far right, and he did a pretty good job of arguing against the substance of what Cohen said.
Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by AlexandrB on Friday November 22, 2019 @02:57PM (#21609418)
When did he argue against anything Cohen said? He just said his comedy sucks and he’s “the worst kind of strongman”, while implying that Cohen wants to take basic human rights away from people. If that’s not an ad-hominem, it’s pretty close.
Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by vorpalhex on Friday November 22, 2019 @04:01PM (#21610028)
Not only did I not insult his comedy, I actually even called it funny.

Cohen from his ADL speech genuinely believes that platforms should be publishers and should be on the line for what is posted to them - and therefore the publisher should censor all words which disagree with its opinions. He doesn't use the word censor, he instead uses the words "restrict", "limit" and "delay". He uses examples like hate speech and racism, and while that sounds fine on the surface, he makes it very clear he believes publishers can rightfully restrict speech in many ways well beyond what the law requires.

In arguing for censorship, he is restricting the freedom of expression and that is against human rights. While it sounds great when it's focused on "big platforms" of "American Billionaires", forcing online platforms to be publishers is de facto censorship and it doesn't only affect Facebook, but your small community forums and message boards too.

Yes, I do accuse Cohen of playing the strongman. He's a wealthy comedian (his net worth is about $130M) who made his money by filming himself manipulating other people, and he believes average people shouldn't be able to post freely on the internet without someone (the platform, the Government) approving their speech. That's an abhorrent view and it's in stark contrast to the belief that humans should have agency.

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by spion on Friday November 22, 2019 @07:17PM (#21611472)
So let me get this straight, a person who supposedly got a platform to manipulate many others at once (and thats dangerous, according to you) is saying that manipulators shouldn't get a platform to manipulate many others at once, and you find that... also bad?

Worst case it might be hypocritical, but the claim is certainly inconsistent. The question is, how do we handle dangerous manipulators on social media? Are they not a problem at all?

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by oska on Friday November 22, 2019 @03:27PM (#21609704)
I've already flagged lph's comment smearing vorpalhex but I see it as so egregious I'm also going to list the HN guidelines that I see it as breaching:

> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.

> When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names

> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

> Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents.

> Please don't post shallow dismissals

> Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by mcguire on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:19PM (#21607634)
I'm sorry, are you talking about Cohen? He's not usually considered far-right.
Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by vorpalhex on Friday November 22, 2019 @11:59AM (#21607414)
Are you suggesting that I'm far-right?
Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by jacquesm on Friday November 22, 2019 @02:25PM (#21609064)
The four stages of argument:

- I'm right because ...

- You're right because ...

- You're ugly!

- Person 'A' hits person 'B'.

Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by knolax on Friday November 22, 2019 @12:51PM (#21608026)
One thing I've noticed about the far-left is that they have a tendency of dismissing anybody they disagree with as far-right.
Re:Sacha Baron Cohen Uses ADL Speech to Tear Apart Mark Zuck... by mindslight on Friday November 22, 2019 @01:51PM (#21608666)
One thing I've noticed about authoritarians is that they have been pretty successful at categorizing anything outside of their Overton window as "far", a corollary of branding authoritarianism as "centrist".