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Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by YeGoblynQueenne on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @04:42PM (#21588869)
It's like how I grew up speaking French and never realised that it only has two genders. I'm Greek and Greek has three, including a neutral gender that French lacks. It seems I was always making the assumption in my head that, .e.g. "table" or "oiseau" were neutral ("une table" is female in French and "un oiseau" is male. In Greek they're both neutral).

I was a bit shocked when I realised, too. I mean, I studied French formally at some point and I had learned that it only has two genders but it never, you know, sunk in.

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by na85 on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @07:47PM (#21590338)
In Canadian French there's an easy remedy if you can't recall what the gender of a noun is: just insert some profanity.

Québécois vulgarity tends to be inserted between the article and the verb, in a sort of semi-adjective form. So if you forgot if le porte or la porte was correct, you'd say l'ostie de porte which translates roughly to "the goddamn door" but lets you collapse le or la into l' and avoid the error altogether.

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by YeGoblynQueenne on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @10:08PM (#21591102)
Oh, but that's the funny thing. I don't struggle with the article. I use le/la or un/une etc correctly. It just seems I do it without ever thinking what it means.

So I'd map "la table" to "το τραπέζι" and "un oiseau" το "ένα πουλί" and never notice that the gender has changed from one language to the other.

Unless I think about it.

And the same with pronouns also.

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by squiggleblaz on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:27AM (#21592575)
My takeaway from your post is probably completely surprising to some, but:

A trapezium is a table? (Checks etymonline) And apparently indeed, trapezium comes from a Greek word that means "little table" from "trapeza" meaning table. The things you learn.

(For those who can't read Greek, the Greek writing in YeGoblynQueenne's post are "to trapezi" and "ena pouli". I can read Greek since my mother studied Christian theology and had the alphabet in prominent display to help her learn it, but I can't understand a word of it.)

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by YeGoblynQueenne on Thursday November 21, 2019 @05:11AM (#21592787)
Hah. Yes, it's the same word. Or same word-root anyway. Interestingly, a "table" as in a matrix, is called a "pinakas" (πίνακας). Which translates as "board" to English (as in whiteboard, cheeseboard etc).

Have you ever visited Greece? It would be a strange experience, being able to read all the signs but not knowing what they mean. I know because I was in Bulgaria for a conference this summer and I could read everything... but understand not a word :)

That's because it's all in a Cyrillic alphabet which is very similar to the Greek alphabet (it's partly derived from it). Come to think of it, so is the Latin alphabet, but I'm used to seeing Latin signs everywhere, including in Greece.

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by nicoburns on Thursday November 21, 2019 @06:03AM (#21593017)
As a native english speaker who also speaks some french and spanish, I had the opposite experience:

I had trouble deciphering the alphabet at speed, but once I had I could often understand the word based on it's similarity to spanish (e.g. Σάββατο / Sábado) or english (έξοδος / exit).

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by close04 on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:41AM (#21592636)
> I can read Greek since my mother studied Christian theology

I can read (a reasonable amount of) Greek after studying a lot of physics/math :D. But I only understand the words that trickled into the other languages I speak or can recognize a root for.

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by YeGoblynQueenne on Thursday November 21, 2019 @05:19AM (#21592819)
Yes, that's another interesting experience- how other people pronounce Greek letters and words that they've learned from science textbooks. Sometimes I forget myself and say something in a Greek way and people just stare at me :)

E.g. I was working on a paper with my thesis advisor and I used the plural of "lemma", "lemmata" (λήμμα, λήμματα). It's actually in the English dictionary, but he advised me to say "lemmas" instead because people reading the paper may not be native English speakers and it would just make the text harder to read. I always want to sneak in fancy words in my papers, but it's a bit tricky to do it right..

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by jhbadger on Thursday November 21, 2019 @07:55AM (#21593558)
And a trapezoid is called that because it is like a table, with a flat part on top.
Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by tasogare on Thursday November 21, 2019 @01:45AM (#21591949)
Yes, native speakers don’t thinks about grammatical gender of words, it’s just coming up naturally. The worrying trend however, is the politicization of language, based on a Saphir-Whorf-like hypothesis (and I would say on Newspeak as well) which lead to the horror that is called écriture inclusive. The Académie condamned this new orthography but it’s still wildly in use in administrative documents.
Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by squiggleblaz on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:37AM (#21592618)
"Condemned". The distinction between condemn and damn seems to go back to Latin, if not further.

I'm not sure it should matter what one particular authority decides, in terms of language use. People, including people writing administrative documents should be free to write in the manner that feels most comfortable to them. If this creates a political problem, the political solution is the ballot box and altering the education or hiring policies.

Customary criticism is fine, but it makes no sense to say "you shouldn't say foo because some organisation that shouldn't have authority says you shouldn't say foo"; instead, you should have some direct reason why foo is problematic.

Your criticism shouldn't be circular either, for instance "you shouldn't use 'singular they' because 'they' is plural" is completely, aside from being historically wrong, ineffective as criticism, since it is merely because of the incorrect description of the word as "plural" by some authority that you believe it to be plural, whereas most people use it regularly to refer to a non-specific person.

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by Bayart on Thursday November 21, 2019 @05:31AM (#21592873)
>People, including people writing administrative documents should be free to write in the manner that feels most comfortable to them

They should also write in a way that conveyed information effectively. The so-called inclusive writing is extremely disruptive to the flow of reading and makes job offers, administrative documents and so on a pain to navigate (all for the sake of political positions very few people actually hold), defeating the point of language. I'm sure fellow French speakers will know what I'm talking about.

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by lordnacho on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @05:20PM (#21589223)
There's quite a lot of language stuff you don't realise if you grew up with it. Sometimes you learn a rule without knowing what on earth the rule actually it. I had this come up once in a Danish class. The choice was between "hans" and "sin" which is a somewhat subtle thing. The thing is I never got any of the answers wrong, but I still don't really understand the difference.

On the learning side, you also often get told rules that don't entirely make sense. For instance I'm told in a Mandarin class that there's a difference between 不 and 没 which is whether it's subjective or objective that something isn't true. But that's neither clear when saying something, nor clear in terms of examples I've been given. What's really weird is I speak another Chinese dialect that also has this distinction, and I also can't tell you the rule there.

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by yorwba on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @05:54PM (#21589518)
> I'm told in a Mandarin class that there's a difference between 不 and 没 which is whether it's subjective or objective that something isn't true.

I don't think that rule holds. 没 is usually used to negate either 有 "have" or something in the past. E.g. 我没告诉你。 "I didn't tell you." 不 is used for everything else, i.e. 我不告诉你。 "I'm not telling you." (The interesting thing is that "have" also has a past aspect in English, e.g. "I have told you." But Mandarin doesn't use 有 as a general past marker, only the negation 没)

> I speak another Chinese dialect that also has this distinction, and I also can't tell you the rule there.

Which one? Is the rule the same as in Mandarin, i.e. can you produce correct Mandarin sentences despite not knowing the rule, relying just on intuition? I think Cantonese uses 冇 to negate 有.

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @08:24PM (#21590567)
> 没 is usually used to negate either 有 "have" or something in the past.

More technically, 没 is the negative marker that applies to the verb 有, and 不 is the negative marker that applies to everything else. It isn't the 没 that marks a negative in the past as being past -- it is the (omitted) 有. That 有 is commonly not omitted in negative past sentences -- and it's also possible to use 有 to mark past time in positive-polarity sentences, though this is much rarer than the same marking in negative sentences.

There's a straightforward information-theoretic reason why 有 can be so commonly omitted -- it is the only thing that can ever follow 没, so actually realizing it doesn't add much. Everyone knows it's there.

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by thaumasiotes on Thursday November 21, 2019 @02:24AM (#21592080)
Hm, I responded too quickly the first time. Some comments on the rest of your comment:

> E.g. 我没告诉你。 "I didn't tell you."

This is the same sentence as 我没有告诉你, also fully idiomatic. The past sense is coming from the 有.

> But Mandarin doesn't use 有 as a general past marker, only the negation 没

This is plainly incorrect. 有 is used as a general past marker. It just isn't obligatory in positive-polarity sentences. Here are some things Chinese people have said to me:

你在中国 有看见过 美国没有的水果吗?("Have you seen any fruits in China that America doesn't have?")

我有吗 ("Did I?")

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by yorwba on Thursday November 21, 2019 @07:53AM (#21593548)
What I meant by "not a general past marker" is that you can't in general use positive 有 where you can use negative 没(有) to talk about the past. For example, you wouldn't say 我有看这本书。 to express you've read that book, but instead 我看了这本书。 Even in constructions like 有……过 the 有 is optional, so I'd say the past aspect is carried by 过.

On the other hand, maybe that is a shortening of an originally obligatory two-part expression similar to Jespersen's cycle, famously observed in the appearance of "pas" and ongoing disappearance of "ne" in French "ne ... pas". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jespersen%27s_Cycle

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by lordnacho on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @07:29PM (#21590209)
Cantonese. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonese_grammar#Negations

As you can see, there's more than one way to negate something. Well it's hard for me to know if the rule is the same, given that I don't really know what the rule is in either! As per my previous comment I can tell you what sounds right, but I can't tell you why.

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by yorwba on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @08:07PM (#21590483)
The explanation for Cantonese in that Wikipedia article could be used just as well for Mandarin by simply replacing 唔→不, 冇→没, 唔好→不要, 咪→别,咗→了 ... so the rules are pretty much the same, they're just instantiated with different vocabulary.
Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by ksaj on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @06:07PM (#21589601)
Swedish has masculine and neuter, but not feminine, interestingly enough.
Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by blompa on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @11:04PM (#21591349)
Masculine and feminine have merged into 'common'/'utrum', used mostly for animate objects as pointed out by a sibling comment, although not all animate objects (e.g. barn, lejon).

Neuter has stayed as is.

There are, however, remnants of the masculine/feminine distinction left: e.g. klockan is ofter referred to as feminine (hon), and the "-e" in "storebror" (as opposed to "-a" which is used for utrum today and feminine in the past).

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by einr on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:02AM (#21592475)
There are, however, remnants of the masculine/feminine distinction left: e.g. klockan is ofter referred to as feminine (hon), and the "-e" in "storebror" (as opposed to "-a" which is used for utrum today and feminine in the past).

The -e/-a ending is still in common use not only in constructions like "storebror" but in general in adjectives pointing to a female or male person ("den fule mannen", "den fula kvinnan") although this usage is falling out of favour a bit ("den fula mannen" would not generally sound wrong to most modern speakers)

Another interesting remnant of old Norse that still lingers in modern Swedish is the accusative case ending -s in expressions like "till fjälls", "till skogs", "till sjöss", "till sängs" etc.

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by DFHippie on Wednesday November 20, 2019 @08:16PM (#21590529)
In which case it's probably better to say it has an animate/inanimate distinction. I was told by someone interested in historical linguistics that Indo-European first developed an animate/inanimate noun class system and then the animate class developed a feminine subset.
Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by einr on Thursday November 21, 2019 @04:12AM (#21592515)
In which case it's probably better to say it has an animate/inanimate distinction.

No, this is not accurate, neither historically nor according to modern usage. Animate objects tend towards utrum but plenty of inanimate objects are utrum too and there are no hard rules or mnemonics you can use to divine which is which.

It's "ett tåg" ("a train") but "en bil" ("a car"), "ett äpple" ("an apple") but "en banan" ("a banana"), "ett barn" (a child) but "en vuxen" (an adult). This is entirely arbitrary and non-obvious to non-native speakers and if you're learning Swedish, you just straight up have to learn which is which for every word.

Re:The Swedish phoneme notorious for having a dedicated IPA ... by henrikschroder on Thursday November 21, 2019 @10:49AM (#21595302)
The biggest mindfuck about utrum/neutrum is that it exists in Danish and Norwegian as well, but the categorization is not 100% the same, some nouns are utrum in one language and neutrum in the other. So there's different arbitrary rules, and if you go from one of the Scandinavian languages to the other, you just have to learn the ones that aren't the same.

For example, "a friendship" is "et venskab" in Danish, but "en vänskap" in Swedish.