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Re:TikTok hits 1.5B downloads, outperforming Instagram by dang on Tuesday November 19, 2019 @02:18PM (#21577032)
Please don't take HN threads into nationalistic flamewar, especially not off-topic rants about astroturfing for which there is no externally verifiable evidence.

I've spent countless hours looking at this problem in HN data, which admittedly may not be representative of the internet at large, but is the most relevant here. By far the overwhelming finding is that users are massively prone to leap to "astroturfing" (or "shill", "troll", "bot", or "spy") based solely on hearing something they dislike on a charged topic. This is plainly a psychological bias—probably one we all share—and it dominates all discussion on the topic by at least 99% if not 99.9. The phenomenon is so universal, and conforms so closely to what I see on other platforms even though I can't study their data, that I have to believe it's the same everywhere.

The parsimonious explanation for comments expressing strongly opposing points of view is that humans are the same on both sides of any divisive topic: emotionally charged and primed for reflexive, predictable responses. That's why these arguments are all the same (in the case of China v. US: "but imperialism", "but totalitarianism", etc.) and also why they are off topic on HN: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que....

This was the top subthread before I marked it off topic. That's mostly because of upvoters, but the reason we ask people not to post this sort of flamebait is that upvoters simply can't resist it. When it comes to indignation, upvotes are a statistical cloud of fruit flies showing up near a decaying banana.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:TikTok hits 1.5B downloads, outperforming Instagram by komali2 on Tuesday November 19, 2019 @02:46PM (#21577399)
99% of the time I'm with you 100%. This is the 1% so perhaps I can steal a bit more of your time to understand how to better have the conversation I wanted to have around the subject (and if the answer is "somewhere other than HN" that is fair and fine).

I definitely wasn't trying to start a flamewar, let alone a nationalistic one - I do see an aggressive amount of pro-PRC posts (on other platforms), I have no proof that they're PRC agents other than the fact that they're posting things that one would consider "pro-PRC." I have no proof that similar isn't happening against the PRC on baidu, other than that I don't see it. So is the issue that my post was on too tenuous a thread, based on your data on HN? I certainly didn't mean to imply the presence of shills on HN - I almost never see pro-PRC posts. I specifically called out facebook, twitter, and reddit to avoid that implication.

Perhaps it would have been better to construct my post without mentioning shills at all? I am concerned about the PRC gov's role in communication applications and technology, and I am curious what others (HN crowd particularly because they're almost universally more knowledgeable than me) have to say on the subject.

If the answer to all my ramblings is "don't pin random conspiracy theory shit on the PRC here" that's totally acceptable as well.

Re:TikTok hits 1.5B downloads, outperforming Instagram by dang on Tuesday November 19, 2019 @06:41PM (#21579611)
I think all I can do is repeat myself: (1) don't comment about shilling (astroturfing/bots/trolls/spies) unless you have specific evidence, keeping in mind that the presence of opposing views is not evidence; (2) don't post flamebait, including nationalistic flamebait. If I apply those principles to your GP comment, most of it would disappear. Perhaps there's a version of it that could be rewritten not to violate them, but I'm not so sure.

I believe you about intent, but the sad fact is that intent doesn't matter in cases like this, because the dangers are mechanical and predictable. Arson is worse than negligence, but from a fire-prevention point of view there's little difference; and since many more fires are started by negligence than arson, it's the bigger problem.