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Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by ksec on Monday November 18, 2019 @08:45AM (#21564225)
I have many questions,

1. Are any of these TBM considered state of art? I dont see any tech inside those TBM that could not be done 10 years ago other than the cost of the machine. We are entering new Space Race era and yet some fundamental stuff still looks very, should I say "traditional".

2. Why cant we build even bigger TBM? Like Double the current diameter. Or Bigger TBM that are Rectangular rather than Circle.

3. The biggest problem with TBM is that they are slow. Even if we had made them 10 times faster I would still consider them very slow. Surely there could be technology that improve on it?

4. Are there any reason why we dont use TBM for small pipes, ( like for electricity or fibre optics, )

Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by LeifCarrotson on Monday November 18, 2019 @11:31AM (#21565603)
For smaller pipes, we use horizontal directional drilling machines. They are very common:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directional_boring

You've probably seen them on the side of the road, looks something like a big skid steer with a stack of pipes on the side. It's much more practical to put a person running a piece of construction equipment on the surface than trying to miniaturize and automate a TBM.

To use the equipment, a mini-excavator digs two small holes for the entrance and exit 20 to 200 yards apart, the HDD rig is rolled up, and a 10 foot length of 2" pilot boring drill rod is pushed in. The HDD rig connects this to the next pipe in the stack, and is able to rotate (with extreme torque), push (with limited force), pull (with extreme force), and pump fluid through the drill rod. A locator walks around with a receiver that can measure the position of the tip of the drill underground. On smaller installations, the tip of the pilot drill is slanted, and to go "straight" you need to continuously rotate the drill, or you can bias your pushing and turning to move with the slanted tip aimed in one direction and go up, down, or sideways. Bigger ones have downhole motors and steering tools that can use hydraulic pressure from the mud being pumped through the pipe to cut harder soils or go farther with less friction.

When your pipe is pushed through and comes out the exit hole, you attach a back-reamer to the drill head, and pull it backwards to enlarge the hole (pulling additional drill rod, installed at the exit pit, behind it). Finally, attach the conduit, fiber, water or gas pipe, or whatever you're installing and pull it all through. Then you make your exit hole an entrance hole, fill in the original, and install a junction box to connect the two segments.

It's simple, cheap, effective, and proven technology for utility-level scale - there's probably one of these working somewhere within 10 miles of you right now. Unfortunately, it doesn't scale up to TBM size.

Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by alexhutcheson on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:45AM (#21565163)
> 4. Are there any reason why we dont use TBM for small pipes, ( like for electricity or fibre optics, )

Cut-and-cover[1] construction is an order of magnitude cheaper. You don't need TBMs unless you're going really deep, or there are things on the surface that are really expensive or disruptive to work around.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel#Cut-and-cover

Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by jtolmar on Monday November 18, 2019 @12:38PM (#21566265)
3 - A TBM has a bunch of cutters on the front; big blades that cut through rock and whatever else they run into. Since they're cutting through rock, they wear out pretty quickly, so they routinely have to stop the machine and send workers up to the front to replace those tools. The site is frequently pressurized to prevent the tunnel from flooding, so the workers have to go through a pressurization chamber before they can get to work, slowing the process down.

That maintenance is needed because of how much material has to be cut, not by how long it's sitting there, so going faster means going through more material and wearing down the tools faster. You'd have the same total amount of time spent maintaining it (assuming going faster doesn't wear the tools down even faster, which is iffy). So just digging faster runs into Amdahl's law; you speed up a portion of the process but the total gains are less because the other parts are fixed.

(And, as others have said, yes there's a faster way; cut and cover.)

Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by merb on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:03AM (#21564798)
btw. a lot of your questions are answered with a single statement. The world biggest manufacturer is a really really small company, compared to a lot of other companies. The villages around the company have a smaller population (together) than the company has workers. (herrenknecht only tells about direct employed people, which is way below the people that work on-site) the pressure from chinese companies is extremly big and a lot of tbm's are special machines that ONLY work for the specific tunnel/project, there is no such thing as an tbm for everything, most (not all) of them are special purpose tools.
Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by throw0101a on Monday November 18, 2019 @11:32AM (#21565614)
> a lot of tbm's are special machines that ONLY work for the specific tunnel/project,

Yes, a lot, but not all:

> In December, the TTC bought a banner ad on the Tunnels & Tunneling International website, to list for sale four tunnel-boring machines it used to dig the 13.5-kilometre twin tunnels for the Spadina subway extension to York Region. The TTC had bought the machines in 2009 from Lovat for $58-million. Today the TTC has stored the machines at the Keele Valley landfill site. The machines are nearly good as new, the TTC says. “The TBMs are generally considered to have a useful life of tunneling of approximately 20 kilometres,” reads a TTC tender document. “At the completion of this project, they would have been used between 2.5 and 3.2 kilometres, or approximately 10-15% of their useful life. Accordingly, the TBMs will be capable of significant additional tunneling on other projects.”

* https://nationalpost.com/news/toronto/why-metrolinx-plans-to...

Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by sjwright on Monday November 18, 2019 @09:01AM (#21564335)
TBMs can only go as quickly as you can shift earth out of the tunnel. Increasing the diameter hugely increases the volume of earth.

If you want to excavate a rectangular tunnel, you want a roadheader.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadheader

Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by bobbydroptables on Monday November 18, 2019 @09:12AM (#21564413)
Increasing the diameter proportionally increases the exit pathway through which you can shift earth out of the tunnel. Obviously there are complexities in the field that I'm not aware of but these seem like problems you can engineer around.

It's really surprising to me that in 2019 the limiting factor in a billion/trillion dollars industry like transit is something that could be solved with a better conveyer belt.

To ask OP's question another way: many areas of technology and engineering have improved rapidly over the last decade or three. Have TBMs been keeping up?

Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by sjwright on Tuesday November 19, 2019 @02:29AM (#21571242)
Increasing the width of the exit pathway doesn't increase the rate at which you can deal with the mountain of crap piling up at the end of the tunnel.

You sound like Elon Musk. "This problem seems easy. Clearly all existing TBMs suck so we'll just build a better TBM!"

Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by bluGill on Monday November 18, 2019 @09:17AM (#21564446)
Is there any improvement that can be made? Every time some engineer comes up with an improvement that is one more improvement invented. There is only so much improvement possible.

Slow is not a problem. A few meters a day sounds slow, but if you are going long distances you can scale by buying more TBNs putting them in a line and having each meet up to the next. Assuming you have the money. In practice the cost to build a tunnel is high enough that you probably can't afford to scale up too much that way.

Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by alexhutcheson on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:42AM (#21565145)
> A few meters a day sounds slow, but if you are going long distances you can scale by buying more TBNs putting them in a line and having each meet up to the next.

This would be impractical for most real-world projects. First, digging the access pits to get the TBM in and out are a significant fraction of the project cost - access pits are really expensive, and require a big space, so you don't want to dig more of them than you have to. Second, you're normally digging a tunnel (rather than building on the surface) for a reason: you're going under something. That something might be a body of water, it might be a mountain, or it might be a dense city full of valuable real-estate that you didn't want to disrupt with a cut-and-cover operation. Either way, it's going to be really hard to dig an access pit right in the middle of it.

Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by bluGill on Monday November 18, 2019 @02:49PM (#21567513)
20 meters a day is 4 km/year assuming you only work weekdays. (This is a bit faster than average, but not unreasonable). In your city you only need a pit every 4km, which is a lot easier to find, you don't have to be exact (in fact you don't want to be because you probably need more crew to pull them out at the end of the tunnel), so you can find an outdated building to buy for cheap someplace along the route. Or you can do a two year dig with 8km access holes. Don't forget that you need a station someplace in the city - your large hole to get the machine out in the middle of the city should be planned where you need the largest station anyway.

Of course for mountains and large water bodies you are correct. The English channel left some TBMs in the middle so they could get done faster - at much higher expense.

Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by jonwachob91 on Monday November 18, 2019 @11:04AM (#21565364)
>>> you can scale by buying more TBNs putting them in a line and having each meet up to the next

What I'm picturing from your statement is two TBM drilling towards each other like ---> <----.

Which would require the digging of a third hole where the TBM "drill heads" meet. After every TBM dig, the drill heads are left at the end of the tunnel b/c they are bigger than the new tunnel (as the head digs the tunnel, workers install support structure to prevent a collapse, so the just drilled tunnel is smaller than the being drilled tunnel). A 3rd dig would be required where the two TBM drill heads meet to retrieve them and connect the tunnels. That's a lot of $$$ :/

Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by Swannie on Tuesday November 19, 2019 @02:26AM (#21571234)
> Which would require the digging of a third hole where the TBM "drill heads" meet.

In most projects it's called a station.

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/construction/tunnelling/meet-our-...

Occasionally you'll have dive sites that are not at/near stations, but not that often.

https://www.sydneymetro.info/station/blues-point-temporary-r...

https://www.sydneymetro.info/tunnelling

Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by bluGill on Monday November 18, 2019 @02:39PM (#21567428)
I was thinking same direction ---->---->. Though as the other poster pointed out, often you are going under something and so you can't do that - the English channel did what you propose and there are thus tunneling boring machines under the channel.
Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by dwild on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:34AM (#21565077)
I think it's all about your needs.

Sure you can improve the traditional TBM, but are theses improvement are needed?

Most of us here come from the software world, where sure improvement are costly (still less than in the physical world), but they can also target a huge market for a pretty cheap price.

Who actually need it to be 10 times faster? It takes already a pretty long time just to put in place a project, would it matters if you just saved a few months because the tunnel was bored faster? Sure in some situation, 10 times faster could be useful, but would theses situations be ready to pay the cost to develop that? Why not buying 10 TBM instead? That would even be more flexible.

Re:Tunnel Boring Machines (2018) by herlitzj on Monday November 18, 2019 @11:25AM (#21565531)
> 4. Are there any reason why we dont use TBM for small pipes, ( like for electricity or fibre optics, )

We do. It's called a directional drill. https://www.ditchwitch.com/directional-drills