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Re:Scapegoating free software’s failures by simonh on Monday November 18, 2019 @03:57AM (#21562846)
The FSF is not 'attacking' such licenses, they're just arguing that they aren't free libre software licenses. It's the SSPL people and others, by trying to co-opt the free and Libre software movement by claim their licenses are something they are not, which are mounting the assault. And let's be clear it is a pernicious, aggressive and deliberate attack threatening, and in some cases knowingly intended to fundamentally undermine free software principles. This is an existential threat to the FSF.

If they just went away and propagated and argued for their licenses on their own terms, the FSF wouldn't have anything in particular to say about it.

Re:Scapegoating free software’s failures by zozbot234 on Monday November 18, 2019 @04:05AM (#21562880)
And the FSF has even come up with their own license for network services, namely the AGPL - that is a full free-software license, since compared to the GPL it only clarifies requirements around public performance of the covered work (which unlike mere "use" of the software, is something that copyright law expressly grants as an exclusive right of the copyright holder!)
Re:Scapegoating free software’s failures by kemitchell on Monday November 18, 2019 @08:05AM (#21563961)
SSPL was a direct response to perceived loopholes and inadequacies in AGPL. I’ve written about that here: https://writing.kemitchell.com/2018/11/04/Copyleft-Bust-Up.h...

Most people never get that far, because they write the license off as an attack on principles. The debate about the substance didn’t really get to happen.

As for public performance, I’m not aware of any case law to suggest that the public performance right applies to software as you suggest. And I’ve never seen FSF or independent legal counsel argue that GPLv3 and AGPLv3 are functionally equivalent due to background law.

The FSF theorists I’ve read describe AGPL as “synthesizing” a public performance right for software that doesn’t otherwise exist under current copyright law. They do so out of two existing exclusive rights: the right to prepare derivative works (making changes or building larger programs) and the right to reproduce in copies (incidental to use).

Re:Scapegoating free software’s failures by zozbot234 on Monday November 18, 2019 @09:02AM (#21564347)
Well, I'm not aware of any case law to suggest that the right would not apply. Until the question is decided either way, it makes sense to assume that it would be applicable.
Re:Scapegoating free software’s failures by kemitchell on Monday November 18, 2019 @09:08AM (#21564376)
That’s not how US law works.

Van Lindberg has done a lot of work on public performance recently. You might like to read his blog.

Re:Scapegoating free software’s failures by cy_hauser on Monday November 18, 2019 @09:41AM (#21564616)
From where I sit it appears the FSF has come up with a particular definiton of "free" and opposes anyone using the term "free software" if their meaning of free differs from what the FSF desires. Maybe the term "FSF free" should be used when that is the intent rather than trying to corral the term "free software" itself.
Re:Scapegoating free software’s failures by danShumway on Monday November 18, 2019 @10:34AM (#21565075)
The FSF came up with a particular definition of "free", the community broadly accepted it, the community and developers releasing software under that definition built up a particular public association with that term, and then a bunch of companies decided they wanted the all the goodwill of that term without paying attention to any of the fundamental rules the community had established years ago.

Literally this entire conflict could go away if critics of the FSF just used the term "Source Available". What would be wrong with that?

Why does our community need to be the one to give up our terms and muddy years of existing language, documentation, and cultural association? What exactly is the problem with just using the words "Source Available"? If someone develops a new license, why is it suddenly my responsibility to redefine the terminology I used for everything I've ever built?

Re:Scapegoating free software’s failures by cy_hauser on Monday November 18, 2019 @03:11PM (#21567684)
Before now there was no conflict for the the term free software. When it accomplished the same goal for everyone many people just didn't care about a precise meaning. It was "free enough" for all views to fit in the same tent.

Large corporations are now stepping the unwritten meaning held by one portion who were previously satisfied with the overall outcome. Before, these people didn't care who owned the term as long as the goal was achieved. Now that the situation has changed these people want the phrase to mean what they always believed it meant. Even though you might not have been aware this difference even existed.

The meanings of words change with the progress of humanity. Nobody gets to hold on to a word like free just because they're comfortable with its current usage.

Re:Scapegoating free software’s failures by danShumway on Monday November 18, 2019 @03:55PM (#21568054)
That argument assumes a conclusion I reject -- I disagree that the culturally understood definition of FOSS has already changed outside of specific set of businesses. And in the same way that nobody gets to hold onto a word indefinitely just because they dislike change, it is also true that nobody gets to redefine a word just because it helps their marketing.

The current evolution of language like "free" is a political movement pushed by political actors; it's not based on an observation of how culture has evolved, but on a belief about how culture should evolve -- specifically how culture should evolve to benefit specific business interests.

In other words, Mongo didn't wake up one morning and discover that FOSS had changed, Mongo made a decision to try and change FOSS.

Of course, businesses and critics have the right to argue about FOSS definitions, and traditional FOSS advocates have a right to tell them to buzz off and stop stealing the positive associations that exist in no small part because we were dogmatic about definitions.

My position is that there are scenarios where dogmatism about words is genuinely important, and that sometimes, changing definitions should be resisted. The muddying of FOSS is no different from the muddying of words like "organic" or "humane" as labels for food products. Without a strong governing organization like FSF to prevent the dilution of these terms, the terms will quickly become meaningless and useless for end-users and consumers. FOSS may not be a purely prescriptive term, but that doesn't mean that every database product on the market should be able to manipulate it whenever they feel like they aren't making enough money.

Re:Scapegoating free software’s failures by cy_hauser on Monday November 18, 2019 @04:36PM (#21568370)
While I can't help you with your opinions and beliefs I do understand what you're saying. MongoDB may have done this purely to for marketing. They may also genuinely believe the change still leaves their code being free software. I don't know anyone there.

The change, if there is one, won't be because of you or me. It will happen over a few years time or it won't happen. It will be driven by what people accept and what they don't. A few extremely loud voices may turn the tide in either direction so maybe there's good reason for each side digging in their heels and making noises. Either way, each individual's idea of free software will exist under the names that evolve out of this skirmish. Both businesses and coders will adapt.

Re:Scapegoating free software’s failures by the_duke on Monday November 18, 2019 @07:18AM (#21563702)
The "aggressive, deliberate, threatening attacks" I have seen in discussions like this almost always seem to come from the FSF crowd. (not necessarily official sources, but supporters in public discussion channels)
Re:Scapegoating free software’s failures by simonh on Tuesday November 19, 2019 @02:05AM (#21571161)
If the source available people weren’t trying to appropriate the term Free Software (with capitals) this argument wouldn’t exist. Free Software has a long standing, broadly accepted definition which many of these companies accepted and see to their advantage for many years. Now they want to change their licenses, but keep using the term.

They are trying to take other people’s stuff. They can’t just walk away with all the good Will and social capital Free Software has built up over the years because it’s beneficial to their shareholders. That’s the attack, it’s a smash and grab, and that’s why FOSS is fighting for its life in this.