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Re:The Case Against Boeing by hef19898 on Saturday November 16, 2019 @01:04PM (#21553976)
Maybe one general remark, from one engineer who spent half his professional life in aerospace to another. Aerospace is, rightly so, proud of the whole industries relentless pursuit to eliminate errors, improve systems and learn from accidents. Your argumentation, in the whole discussion, conveys a different image and does no favour to the sector in general. Some people are already afraid to fly, so the very least we all can do is to be open and honest about errors in the system and the actions taken to prevent the same accident from happening twice.

And generally on engineering. If a system, regardless of the application, fails I consider it bad engineer behavior to single out the user. Systems, especially in aerospace, include everything from design over manufacturing, software, the parts to maintenance, logistics and ultimately training. Failure in any single one of these means failure of the system. Which directly implies all entities involved in development and certification. Failure in more than one is catastrophic. Defending it is bad engineering. Just my 5 cents.

EDIT: MCAS relied on a single AoA sensor. Non-redundant safety critical systems in an aircraft? Seriously?

Re:The Case Against Boeing by WalterBright on Saturday November 16, 2019 @04:03PM (#21554931)
> Defending it is bad engineering.

I did not defend the MCAS software design. Not once. Quite the opposite.

> the very least we all can do is to be open and honest about errors in the system and the actions taken to prevent the same accident from happening twice.

I totally agree with that. That also means being open and honest about all contributing factors to these crashes.

Re:The Case Against Boeing by hn_throwaway_99 on Saturday November 16, 2019 @05:59PM (#21555491)
I've read all your responses in this thread, and to be honest, I don't really understand what point you're trying to make. I don't really see anyone else arguing against the fact that there are things that the 2 crews could have done to not crash the plane, and that their actions contributed to the crash. But is there something you disagree with the following?

1. In a safety critical system design, any change that results in fallible humans being more likely to crash their plane into the sea means the fault lies with the system, not the individuals.

2. I think people are (rightfully IMO) so angry with Boeing because so many of their actions look like they were cost-saving measures. If the system worked exactly as it did, but Boeing had been very clear about the difference in handling MCAS caused, which would likely have required recertification and additional retraining of pilots, I think people would have at least been somewhat more sympathetic. But it looks like so many of the MAX design constraints were driven by the bean-counter directive of "don't do anything that would require recertification", and that's why people are pissed.

Re:The Case Against Boeing by WalterBright on Saturday November 16, 2019 @06:32PM (#21555618)
> that their actions contributed to the crash ... the fault lies with the system, not the individuals

I believe these two statements are contradictory. The pilots were a contributing factor to the crashes. This needs to be investigated to determine why they did not respond appropriately, and corrective action taken. In addition to Boeing correcting the MCAS system, and the maintenance issues.

All contributing factors must be accounted for.

> I think people are (rightfully IMO) so angry with Boeing because so many of their actions look like they were cost-saving measures.

Some of this anger seems to stem from inaccurate, incomplete, and sensationalist reporting, such as the cost saving one. The problems with MCAS were in the software requirements for it. Not bugs in the software, not outsourcing the programming, not in the design of the airframe, etc. The fix is in the software, too. Using the correct software rules in the first place would have cost the same amount of money. Having the MCAS software compare the two independent AOA sensor readings would not have cost more money.

Re:The Case Against Boeing by kortilla on Saturday November 16, 2019 @03:32PM (#21554785)
MCAS isn’t a safety critical system. If it was turning it off wouldn’t really be an option.
Re:The Case Against Boeing by hef19898 on Saturday November 16, 2019 @03:39PM (#21554817)
It is in so far as the 737 MAX had an inherent stability issue due to the mounting position of the larger engines. And every system that can directly affect the control of the aircraft is by definition safety critical. Otherwise the majority of aircraft systems wouldn't be as all modern passenger aircraft can glide without engines pretty well. Following your logic engines wouldn't be safety critical neither.
Re:The Case Against Boeing by WalterBright on Saturday November 16, 2019 @06:44PM (#21555661)
> It is in so far as the 737 MAX had an inherent stability issue due to the mounting position of the larger engines.

I haven't heard it characterized as an instability by any reputable source. Just that the behavior in certain unusual circumstances did not match the earlier 737 behavior.

Re:The Case Against Boeing by kortilla on Sunday November 17, 2019 @02:49PM (#21559657)
The aircraft did not have stability issues. The purpose of MCAS was about providing the right resistance profile to the controls. The aircraft was still stable from an aeronautical perspective.