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Re:If you're busy, you're doing something wrong (2011) by Swizec on Friday November 15, 2019 @01:04AM (#21542622)
Hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard.

But crucially, at the peak of the game, both talent and hard work are just the cost of entry. The rest is luck and opportunity.

For example: Phelps won the Olympics by a knuckle. That’s a difference so subtle it’s down to chaotic systems and butterfly wings for that particular race. Overall everyone at that level is hugely talented and incredibly hardworking

Re:If you're busy, you're doing something wrong (2011) by ivalm on Friday November 15, 2019 @01:29AM (#21542737)
> Phelps won the Olympics by a knuckle.

To be fair, Phelps has 23 Olympic gold medals. Some victories were closer than others but he really did have an era of true dominance.

Re:If you're busy, you're doing something wrong (2011) by CM30 on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:40AM (#21543825)
Honestly, I'd say in quite a few fields, talent and hard work aren't even the cost of entry, they're semi irrelevant to how well someone does there. Sports is one of those cases where being extremely good at something is directly correlated to success, and there's no way around that.

And even that's got a certain element of opportunity in terms of the era you were born in. Tons of good athletes could have revolutionised their fields had they been born a few decades/centuries earlier. See British tennis pros, with the likes of Henman and Murray having had the potential to win a lot more grand slams in an era with worse rivals.

Still, other fields are a lot more opportunity and luck based. A lot of successful businesspeople got there by being well connected or simply having the right idea at the right time. Someone who had the foresight/luck to get into the vaping industry or bitcoin or whatever at the right time could become a millionaire/billionaire without any real talent. There are many YouTubers who can barely edit a video that got hundreds of thousands or milllions of subscribers via luck and timing. There are programmers who don't know what a switch statement here is how classes/OOP works who make thousands a month from game development on Patreon.

In many cases, talent and hard work sadly matters less than finding the right audience to appeal to, being good at marketing/sales and being able to network well/have good connections.

Re:If you're busy, you're doing something wrong (2011) by Swizec on Friday November 15, 2019 @02:02PM (#21547667)
Spotting opportunities and trends is a skill. Building a network is a skill.

Seizing opportunities is a talent I’d say.

You’re falling for the fallacy that technical brilliance/execution is what matters. It doesn’t. It just needs to be good enough.

Re:If you're busy, you're doing something wrong (2011) by CM30 on Sunday November 17, 2019 @06:09PM (#21560669)
No, I agree with that. Being good at marketing, networking and seeking opportunities and trends are skills. And I don't think that technical brilliance/execution is what matters. As you say, if you're good enough at selling yourself, you can be pretty mediocre/genetically NOT gifted at what you succeed in and do really well off it.

But at the same time, there are definitely success stories who just kinda stumbled into it too. Hell, I'd count myself in that camp too, at least at a certain level based on past experiences. I look at some of my past sites, and genuinely wonder how some of them took off. I was terrible at design, mediocre at best at coding, had little idea about marketing and had no network to speak of... and was beating out people who by all means should have done much better.

Even now, I've had people I admire complain that their years of effort on YouTube haven't paid off, while I somehow got three times the subscribers without knowing how to properly edit a video.

I know tons of people who stumbled to undeserving success, and tons of others who should have done well but didn't.

Re:If you're busy, you're doing something wrong (2011) by achillesheels on Friday November 15, 2019 @10:48AM (#21545764)
Your hindsight bias is omitting the risk, or uncertain return on investment, in a business person throwing their lives at vaping, and the perseverance in keeping at it.
Re:If you're busy, you're doing something wrong (2011) by weinzierl on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:03AM (#21543134)
> That’s a difference so subtle it’s down to chaotic systems and butterfly wings for that particular race.

I don't know much about swimming but in bicycle races and skiing close results seem to be very common. Now if it really is "down to chaotic systems and butterfly wings" I wonder why we don't see much more variance amongst the winners?

Re:If you're busy, you're doing something wrong (2011) by rorykoehler on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:13AM (#21543451)
Cycling is much more tactical. Trying to win by a large distance reduces your odds of winning.
Re:If you're busy, you're doing something wrong (2011) by jacquesm on Friday November 15, 2019 @08:22AM (#21544524)
That's a direct consequence of the aerodynamics of cycling. You need partners in the middle stage of a race to help overcome aerodynamic drag, only in the last stage of a race is there a pay-off for being a longer out ahead of everybody else. There is an immediate energy consumption penalty to cycling by yourself because you can't rotate the lead with someone else.
Re:If you're busy, you're doing something wrong (2011) by tapland on Friday November 15, 2019 @01:36AM (#21542774)
But most importantly for your example: genetically superior for the task. =/
Re:If you're busy, you're doing something wrong (2011) by tempestn on Friday November 15, 2019 @02:40AM (#21543036)
Which is basically another form of talent.