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Re:Makers, Don't Let Yourself Be Forced into the 'Manager Sc... by goatinaboat on Monday November 11, 2019 @02:58PM (#21508279)
But as you said, there's a time and place for the brilliant IC, and that's usually the very very early stages of a business.

There are two kinds of ICs that I like to call capability guys and capacity guys. Capability guys can bring new skills into the organisation, and capacity guys can do the bread-and-butter work that actually pays the bills. You need to balance the two. Make sure the capacity guys benefit from learning the new skills and make sure the capability guys don’t go off on a tangent, and it can be a very enriching experience for everyone.

Re:Makers, Don't Let Yourself Be Forced into the 'Manager Sc... by caseyohara on Monday November 11, 2019 @03:39PM (#21508644)
What does IC mean?
Re:Makers, Don't Let Yourself Be Forced into the 'Manager Sc... by taormina on Monday November 11, 2019 @03:46PM (#21508723)
Individual Contributor
Re:Makers, Don't Let Yourself Be Forced into the 'Manager Sc... by desas on Monday November 11, 2019 @03:46PM (#21508726)
individual contributor. i.e. not a manager or leader.
[dead]
Re:Makers, Don't Let Yourself Be Forced into the 'Manager Sc... by zentiggr on Monday November 11, 2019 @08:36PM (#21510742)
In many contexts, "guys" is used to refer to any individual... not always in the perfectly neutral way I grew up with, but often enough that no difference / prejudice / sarcasm / etc is intended.

Or I need to stop saying it that way myself.

MMMV?

Re:Makers, Don't Let Yourself Be Forced into the 'Manager Sc... by fwip on Monday November 11, 2019 @09:29PM (#21511001)
If you're not attracted to men, do you feel weird about being asked "so, what kind of guys do you find attractive?" Some of my guy friends who have done this exercise have found it's more gendered to them than they thought.
Re:Makers, Don't Let Yourself Be Forced into the 'Manager Sc... by zadokshi on Monday November 11, 2019 @08:52PM (#21510820)
Great question. My perception is that ‘guys’ is generally still perceived as gender neutral by people (except for those into feminist blogs), but sometimes I wonder. It would be good to have a proper answer to this question. How do we get an answer without stepping on a political minefield?
Re:Makers, Don't Let Yourself Be Forced into the 'Manager Sc... by dbalatero on Monday November 11, 2019 @09:10PM (#21510900)
I don't think it's a minefield of a question. In general if you want to know how women feel about it you need to either poll some you feel comfortable talking with or read enough experiences to get a good sense of opinion. I don't think you can derive other people's experience simply by thinking about it and or asking the wrong people. "Guys" is indeed standard language, but if you look at language the standard overwhelmingly favors men. Using "guys" maybe isn't the worst thing you can do, but if you believe in death by 1000 papercuts it's worth considering whether it matters to keep using it, or if you can switch to a different term. Personally I'm not attached to the word and to me it sounds like yet another way women are implicitly removed via language, so it's an easy decision to just pick another word.
Re:Makers, Don't Let Yourself Be Forced into the 'Manager Sc... by sgustard on Monday November 11, 2019 @09:13PM (#21510913)
As an experiment, use the word "guys" to refer to an organization (if you have one) in your company that is 80% female. "Let's ask the marketing guys about this one." Does it sound strange? If it does, then the term is not gender neutral.
Re:Makers, Don't Let Yourself Be Forced into the 'Manager Sc... by nitrogen on Tuesday November 12, 2019 @03:34AM (#21512533)
It sounds more neutral in the second person. It would be normal for a woman to walk up to a group of women and say, "Hey guys."
Re:Makers, Don't Let Yourself Be Forced into the 'Manager Sc... by codyb on Monday November 11, 2019 @11:57PM (#21511633)
In mixed groups or groups of men I still seem to say guys and I don’t think it’s an issue, although now that it’s been brought to my attention a lot of times if it’s a work setting I might revert to “hey, how is everyone”.

One thing I noticed is that I’d probably feel off calling a group of female coworkers gals, so I tend to refer to them as women I work with.

Conversely though, I rarely refer to group of male coworkers as men I work with and would probably say “a couple of guys at work” or something.

Language is funny like that, and intent, tone, familiarity, and cultural background matter a lot too.

For instance I’d never call anyone honey at work, but when an older black woman would say something like “oh honey, we can’t do this like that” it was totally fine because it was quite clear that was just her lexicon and it wasn’t uncomfortable for anyone at all.

Life is full of ambiguities, generally if you have to ask “might this make someone uncomfortable?”, I generally just avoid it.

Which can be a bit tough for me sometimes, I definitely grew up and would pepper my speech with curse words as in “oh shit!” Or “holy fuck really?”, but I’ve learned to limit that a bit over time.

Re:Makers, Don't Let Yourself Be Forced into the 'Manager Sc... by amalcon on Monday November 11, 2019 @09:31PM (#21511012)
Depending on the subculture in question, "guy" doesn't even need to be a person. In others, it definitely refers to a male.

Know your audience.