I think you're jumping to conclusions a bit, based on your own experiences. It's textbook bipolar behavior, sure, but it's also textbook a-hundred-other-things behavior as well.

Take me, for instance: as far as I know, I'm not bipolar, or anything else. The best framework for understanding myself I've found is that I'm an INFP.

Though it might look like I prefer to work in bursts and then chill out for a while, the reality is that few things stress me out more than deadlines, and getting into a flow can take a while; while I'm in it, I'm reluctant to let it go prematurely, so I end up going until I tire out, and then I need a rest, which (in a perfect world) can sometimes take two or three times as long as the preceding flow period. I'm also only really motivated internally -- doing things just because I'm supposed to is a recipe for me doing them badly, but doing things I care about is nearly always a recipe for producing very strong work.

I'm also pretty emotionally-driven (from the MBTI standpoint, I'm Fi-dominant) and am drawn towards my negative (Te-inferior), so it's no surprise that I do creative work (music) that requires lots of control and technical know-how (writing music to picture i.e. solving a problem, lots of gear to understand; this draw-towards-the-negative is why I've ended up frequenting a place like HN -- I like the control that programming gives me, even I'm still quite an amateur). This industry has terrible deadlines though, so that's still a problem that I simply endure, and do my best to work around with workflow and efficiency hacks.

Being primarily motivated by my feelings and values means that I can easily get into a slump. It's like depression, but as far as I can tell, probably not "real" depression. Just more like "Highly-Sensitive Person" living.

From the outside, I suppose that my way of being could totally be seen as bipolar or something like that. But the devil is in the details. All sorts of states can produce similar results.

I have bipolar disorder, and the behavior of these "brilliant" engineers working late at night and exhausting themselves for days runs very true for me. It's really the only way that I've found to work successfully in any sort of deep manner. Essentially, this sort of behavior is in response to my disorder.

Mental health disorders are very, very, very, very hard. Not giving engineers with mental health disorders the room that they need to grow is doing everyone a disservice. And yet, the stigma around mental health disorders is so high that that conversation will not happen anytime in my lifetime. At the end of the day, myself and the others like me, are pushed into the dark further and further. It really sucks, and the only place for conversation about it is in therapy and close friends. Mentioning it at work leads to risk of retaliation. So, we cope. And then people write blogs about people like us, without taking into consideration that there's likely some mental health issue going on.

And, for what it's worth, talking about things in terms of MBTI isn't helpful in a conversation about mental health disorders. You might as well be talking about horoscopes.

I'll put it this way: if you are able to regularly and productively work 48 hours straight of your own volition, you already meet a lot of the criteria for hypomania.

Heyflyguy comments downthread that the guy did indeed confide in him that he was bipolar. It seems wayoutthere was on the money.

Yeah, I saw that as well. Regardless, I think my point stands -- I find it pretty alarming how quick the internet is to armchair-diagnose people with serious mental illness.

For example, a good friend of mine was internet-diagnosed with Schizophrenia. He believed it, and going down that rabbit hole screwed him up for a while.

Turns out that he and a long-term daily weed habit just weren't really a good mix (the paranoia led him to take it more seriously than he should have -- and the fact that "paranoia" was one of the supposed "signs" of Schizophrenia only made it more believable). He stopped smoking, and within a couple weeks saw just how ridiculous a turn things had taken.w

My point was simply that people are complex, and one single behavior isn't really enough to go around stating that a person might be X. A person can be inclined towards a certain work habit for loads of reasons.

While not directly what the OP/GP mentioned, sometimes it's worth noting that, if a person suffers from some symptom, they'll probably benefit from advice to (a group of) people who suffer said symptom. This is true regardless of whether said person is part of said group.

If Greg has issues concentrating, and someone says "I know people with autism can suffer from that, and they find stimming helps", then even if Greg is not autistic, they may be well served by that advice.

That said, they won't necessarily be well served by all advice (Ask your doctor for Ritalin!), and I'd personally rather leave it to themselves and their medical practicioner to diagnose/decide whether they're actually part of any given group.

MBTI is actually complete pseudoscientific nonsense with zero empirical backing: https://www.vox.com/2014/7/15/5881947/myers-briggs-personali...

I'm not trying to give offence internet stranger, but Myers-Briggs is bollocks, and it certainly sounds to me like you should see an actual professional to see if you're bipolar.

Sigh...I'm not bipolar. I thought I made that pretty clear in my post.

I am literally never manic. Sometimes I get pretty down -- that's it. Very well within "normal" range. And yes, I've talked with a professional about these sorts of things (when I saw a therapist for a couple of years), and the notion that I am mentally ill, beyond perhaps being a so-called "Highly-Sensitive Person" (a classification I find fuzzy and dubious, but whatever), was outright dismissed and was honestly found to be kind of laughable -- me brining it up was more a sign of my own insecurity/difficulty in accepting that I was seeing a therapist than anything else.

I don't really care to get into a discussion about Meyers-Briggs, as they don't really go anywhere on this site. If you care to read, I've explained my views on the topic elsewhere on HN in more detail: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20888175

Someone works long hours sometimes and therefore they're probably bipolar? What?

Considering that I had the same thought, no.

However, most people cannot regularly work 48 hour shifts except under duress. (IE, their life, job, or crisis depends on it.) Many can do it once, but need a significant break afterwards.

If someone is regularly cycling like that, it very well could be a coping mechanism for bipolar.

Spoiler alert: the guy was taking amphetamines.

Seems like the only way to regularly work 48hr shifts.

I don't know if that was the case with this guy, just that the schedule OP described is the kind of schedule that a bipolar person might end up with. But the main point is that building a work culture that can handle this kind of schedule from people who really need it (for whatever reason) is a good thing, and there are good reasons beyond mere convenience that a person would work a schedule like this.

Oddly enough he did confide in me that he was bipolar.

Long hours is like 10, maybe 16 for a serious emergency (like building-catches-fire level stuff, not like "oh the API is down" stuff - it should happen less than once a year).

48 hours, even once, is a serious problem.

I often work from 9 am to 3am. The problem is when I start something interesting at 5pm. Between 5 and 3am, a box of cookies (Prince, they’re quite addictive). Total 16-17hrs, plus a good lunch break. I think being sugar-high has an amphetamines-like effect.

I know it’s not healthy, but I have unresolved issues that remain unresolved after 10 years trying to get help. At least it’s not alcohol. But that’s also perhaps why people don’t see the distress.

I work to forget.

I assumed it was an exaggeration, like 48 hours with a break to sleep, because how could OP even know for sure that it was truly 48 hours without break if the guy was at home?

I'm still suspicious whether it was actually 48 hours straight with no rest because -- no matter how brilliant someone is -- I would be extremely leery of the code written toward the end of that session.

I suspect people who were around for the dotcom bubble, or who have worked on consumer software back when it had gold master dates, don't read it as an exaggeration. I did not, and know several people who worked non-stop 30-60 hour shifts for various reasons.

In my case one had genuine clinical manic episodes and was open about his mental illness; another seriously burnt out; older friends in the games industry spoke of multi-month post-launch vacations (back in the late 90s) to cool off.

I'm confused, what is a SWE going to do during a 16 hour shift about their building being on fire?

"Back in the day" we used to have physical machines places. A DC catching fire (or flooding, getting hit by lightning, or etc. etc.) meant "manual failover" and a day of restoring backups.

(And that was best case, if your infrastructure and deployment scripts were up-to-date. Most people's weren't; probably the ratio is only slightly better today.)

Unless you are using drugs it's very unnatural for your body to allow you to stay awake for 48hrs. It is however common in people with bipolar.

I could easily be wrong but I didn't think he meant the engineer literally worked 48 hours without sleep or rest, then literally slept for 48 hours. I took it as: the engineer regularly shut out everyone for ~2 days straight and did long, extremely focus coding sessions, then shut out all work for a couple of days to decompress. Taken that way, it's not bi-polar or mental-health issue at all. Seems like this engineer just had the guts to stand up to everyone's ordained-from-the-heavens schedule of interruptions: "I'm gonna ignore distractions for two days to work, then ignore distractions for two days to rest."

I think there's a number of creatives who have sub-clinical manifestations for ADHD or bipolar and don't really qualify for meds but still would benefit from schedule adjustments, and I don't think they necessarily should need a diagnosis for that. It should not arouse suspicions in people's coworkers that Bob, who is otherwise kind, dependable and competent, works an odd schedule.

(OTOH, there are other explanations for the weird schedule. Substance issues, unusual home life, etc. I think people generally should be tolerant of weirdness, but ready to hear about the seemingly brilliant people's awful struggles.)

Right, I think this is the real answer. I don't (and shouldn't have to) disclose my bipolar to my boss / coworkers under any circumstances, but a culture that allows for the fact that not everyone performs to the best of their ability under a traditional 9-5 goes a long way to being inclusive without singling anyone out.

Agreed. About 15 years ago I worked alongside a developer who worked like this. He was a very good engineer (not some savant as in the parent's example, but arguably the best in the organization when his mind was right). His mania had people convincing themselves he was a great engineer, like a black turtleneck and bravado convinced some that Elizabeth Holmes was Steve Jobs 2.0.

Unfortunately, he carried substance abuse and relationship issues with him as well, and eventually his health deteriorated.

When I reflect back, I realize nobody could relate to him because he was ill and needed help. Not because he was smarter or more capable than everyone else.

How common is it for a manic or depressive phase to only last a few days? My reading on the subject and experience with people who have this issue would suggest it's measured in months. Although I guess I have also heard of terms like "rapid cycling".

I've been successfully managing a bipolar disorder for over ten years - and unsuccessfully for years prior to that.

In my _personal_ experience, manic phases last 2 weeks to 2 months, followed by 4-10 months of catatonia.

It is approximately the same for my aunt and grandmother. In their cases, lithium and electroconvulsive therapy were the only things that work. For me, lamotrigine and modafinil are life-changing wonder drugs.

That said, people in my group therapy reported cycles as short as days to weeks - rapid cycling, as you say.

I'd guess, like another commenter, that some people might get this type of oscillating behaviour due to feedback mechanisms: working for 48 hours straight (enabled by mania) could trigger a recession, requiring intensive recovery, which enables a new visible episode of mania.

Note that the "off time" need not be matched by a depressive episode (and in fact I find that unlikely, since depression is not very restful) -- it could simply be exhaustion hiding the symptoms of the underlying (long) manic episode.

It depends. It can last a day, a week, a month, or even longer.

Consider that it's "just" a mood disorder, where mood management can be affected by random stimuli. So, their mood might be stable until some stimulus comes by. And that stimulus could just be a random memory, which can create a feedback loop. It's "fun".

I'm bipolar II and I'm right there with you on work output and aligning your schedule with your illness, however as others have mentioned it's unfair to assume the subject in question is also bipolar simply based on his work schedule.

> I say this because bipolar disorder is a protected condition under the ADA, which allows for work modification.

Allows for but doesn't require. Workplace accommodations for any disability have to be reasonable and it's generally up to the business to decide what's reasonable. You can sue but most businesses would not find it difficult explain why it's important for employees to be working roughly equivalent hours and in the office if that's what everyone is doing.

BTW, deciding your own hours with little direction about how you complete tasks sounds more like a contractor than an employee.

I'm bipolar and that's pretty much how I work. If you are in a hypo phase, you'd better spend it somewhere useful.

yesh I knew a developer like this, except that he was from what I could see a capable 1X developer just with a screwy schedule (although maybe he was doing another project on the side - that was his excuse at any rate) but really my theory, based on his habit of disappearing into the bathroom for extended periods of time and my familiarity with junkies, was that he was a textbook high-functioning one.