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Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by BurnGpuBurn on Monday November 11, 2019 @07:11AM (#21504141)
The biggest advertising company in history tries to kill blocking advertisements in their browser? How am I not surprised.

I bet this move is also to kill the workings of extensions like DecentralEyes and others that try to protect users from being tracked. The whole changing of the API into a "sure we'll block that URL for ya, sometimes maybe" model reeks of increasing user tracking. They'll work out the kinks to let AdBlockers function again. But they'll have their tracking back.

Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by jefftk on Monday November 11, 2019 @09:53AM (#21505263)
Would anyone like to make a bet on whether ad blocking will still work in Chrome in two years? Something like "if you visit the top ten publishers in the US in Chrome Desktop with the best ad blocker will you see more ads than if you use Firefox Desktop with the best ad blocker"?

(Disclosure: I work at Google, not on Chrome, and don't have any inside information on this)

Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by dessant on Monday November 11, 2019 @10:04AM (#21505357)
Vanilla ad blocking will continue to work because companies that participate in Acceptable Ads [1] will be happy to implement restricted ad blocking, such as Eyeo with Adblock Plus, while advanced and effective ad blocking that is not funded by advertising companies, like what uBlock Origin offers, will become impossible in Chrome.

Meanwhile a bunch of unrelated extensions will be killed, the ones that rely on modifying requests and which have nothing to do with ad blocking. Innovation around extensions that involves modifying requests will be halted, and everyone will suffer as a result, except Google.

Crooks will have continued and easy access to user data, since Manifest v3 is not focused on protecting user privacy.

I can bet on that.

[1] https://acceptableads.com/en/

Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by JohnFen on Monday November 11, 2019 @01:00PM (#21507045)
The "acceptable ad" program is pointless, as it doesn't consider tracking to be "unacceptable".
Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by danShumway on Monday November 11, 2019 @11:50AM (#21506330)
Sure, I've been trying to make more tangible predictions about the future lately. I don't bet money, but if I'm wrong, you can come find me online and publicly tell me I'm wrong.

I will make a public prediction that after one year of Manifest V3 actually shipping to users in mainline Chrome:

- Assuming that Manifest V3's declarative API is not significantly changed from its current implementation.

- If you visit each of the top 10 publishers in the US (including open publishing platforms like Twitter/Facebook/Youtube)

- If you compare Chrome and Firefox, each with the most-recommended ad-blocking/tracker-blocking extensions on their equivalent web stores installed (currently Ublock Origin, but we'll leave it open. "Most recommended" means that among technical users, this extension is the most commonly recommended. There's a little ambiguity here, but not sure how to narrow it.).

- Firefox will block more web trackers (65% likelyhood).

- Firefox will block more visible ads and popups (55% likelyhood).

There are a couple of reasons why I feel comfortable making those two predictions:

- Twitter and Facebook both try really hard to get around adblockers, and Firefox will be more likely to be able to combat their strategies in the future.

- Extensions like Privacy Badger will already have a more difficult time working in Manifest V3, so there's potential for new adblocking strategies to develop in Firefox that can't be ported.

- Safari made similar changes, and it's already less effective than Firefox at adblocking, so it seems reasonable to guess that Chrome will follow the same path.

- Properly configured, Firefox is already better than Chrome at blocking web-trackers, and I think Firefox will roll those changes out by default to ordinary users before Chrome does.

There are a few reasons why I'm hedging my bets:

- The advertising market is volatile, and might change significantly in the next year (privacy laws, etc...) This is unlikely, but not so unlikely that I can completely discount it.

- Chrome has research teams working on some interesting privacy strategies. I think it's mostly just talk and they won't do much of significance in a year, but I can't completely discount it.

- A mass exodus to Firefox could force Chrome to adapt Manifest V3 to be more open. This is also unlikely, but again, I can't completely discount it.

- And just general uncertainty, because the longer out you predict the more uncertainty you should introduce.

55% and 65% seem like very low numbers, but I think they're a relatively bold prediction. If Firefox and Chrome are blocking basically identical numbers of trackers/ads, that doesn't count as a successful prediction. I'm not going to be pedantic about, "Chrome randomly saw one more ad on exactly one website." Right now, I consider Chrome and Firefox to be equal in terms of adblocking capabilities. So even a 50% guess would be saying, "there's a one-in-two chance that something changes and Firefox will just be an objectively better browser for adblocking."

Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by jefftk on Monday November 11, 2019 @05:47PM (#21509743)
Thanks for giving so much detail about what you expect! This seems pretty hard to formalize a bet about, though, since the core disagreement is over "Firefox will block more visible ads and popups" which you'd put at 55% and I'd put at ~50%.
Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by danShumway on Monday November 11, 2019 @08:53PM (#21510824)
I want to stress that I think 50% is high here, because the default state is that most browsers do basically the same amount of stuff.

If you asked me to make a bet on whether Firefox would be meaningfully better than Chrome on, like, SSL support, I would give that a pretty low probability -- maybe 10% off the top of my head. Because I expect that a year from now nothing drastic is going to happen that would magically make either browser be different from each other on that front.

It's not 50% "one of the two things will happen, flip a coin", it's 50% "we will see a meaningful change from the status quo."

Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by vbezhenar on Monday November 11, 2019 @07:54AM (#21504426)
They are not trying to kill advertisements. They want to replace API to provide better performance. That's about it. ad blocking extensions won't disappear. May be some will, and new extensions emerge.
Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by pritambaral on Monday November 11, 2019 @08:49AM (#21504781)
> They want to replace API to provide better performance.

The replacement API is incompatible with what it is replacing. The supposed gain in performance is not without loss in ability to block ads.

> ad blocking extensions won't disappear. May be some will, and new extensions emerge.

Some kinds of ad-blocking is simply impossible in the new API, without replacement or workaround. No extension can implement those methods.

Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by blep-arsh on Monday November 11, 2019 @08:11AM (#21504530)
Incidentally these new declarative rulesets are useless against some very simple tricks. I know people who are working full time on defeating ad blockers and the new Manifest v3 seems to have made their lives so much easier.
Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by blibble on Monday November 11, 2019 @09:07AM (#21504887)
this change is intended to move control over the blocking process from the extension author to Google

once they're in total control of how the blockers can operate: I doubt they'll be responsive to what the developers of the blocking extensions want...

Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by kiwicopple on Monday November 11, 2019 @09:37AM (#21505121)
If performance was the criteria by which they made decisions then they would probably bake ad-blocking directly into chrome, since ads/tracking is one of the leading reasons for poor performance
Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by bildung on Monday November 11, 2019 @09:38AM (#21505131)
By that reasoning Microsoft didn't prevent others from writing .doc-compatible word processors either - they just defined the format as basically a memory dump of Word :)

This is how a company implements measures that could be a legal problem: By formally making a technical decision and having the actual goal as a by-product of that decision.

Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by p_l on Monday November 11, 2019 @04:38PM (#21509180)
> By that reasoning Microsoft didn't prevent others from writing .doc-compatible word processors either - they just defined the format as basically a memory dump of Word :)

It's funny because for years MS kept officially supported, feature complete, portable format for use in interchange, while DOC being shared was kinda unintended consequence that just wasn't fought against.

The very requirements of the original DOC spec required it to be a memory dump.

Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by megous on Monday November 11, 2019 @09:29AM (#21505068)
They didn't need to replace the current API, adding a new API would have sufficed. If it was truly better, the major addons would have transitioned it voluntarily. No need to force it.
Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by JohnFen on Monday November 11, 2019 @01:02PM (#21507059)
> They are not trying to kill advertisements. They want to replace API to provide better performance.

So they say. I see literally no reason to believe that claim, though.

Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by vbezhenar on Monday November 11, 2019 @02:03PM (#21507755)
Apple did similar move with Safari. And they are not ad company. So probably it is the valid reason.
Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by JohnFen on Monday November 11, 2019 @02:15PM (#21507877)
Apple has a bit more credibility than Google, too.
Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by tragicpapercut on Monday November 11, 2019 @09:16AM (#21504953)
They are killing the functionality that has supported robust adblocking for a long, long time. Any extensions that replace the current model will be less effective.
Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by treden on Monday November 11, 2019 @07:38AM (#21504327)
This of course. Why is anyone in the least surprised that Google doesn't want the ads that fund Chrome (and everything else they do) to be blocked by the users of Chrome. Shall Google fund our nice things (like Firefox, Chrome, gmail, google maps, etc etc) with hopes and dreams in place of cold hard cash? The audacity.

Clearly an unpopular opinion here, but anyway: I'm happy to let a few ads slip through (which I will happily ignore anyhow) in exchange for the possibility of a future where I dont have to drive a car to get places.

Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by TeMPOraL on Monday November 11, 2019 @07:54AM (#21504423)
It's not either/or, just like you can have a factory making cheap widgets without letting that factory pollute the local river with industrial waste.

Ads are funding the Internet only because it's the easiest legal business model to pull off, so everyone gravitated to it. But it's not like there wouldn't be money for self-driving cars without adtech, and in reality, them being tied with advertising companies only ensures that the future will be shitty.

Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by danShumway on Monday November 11, 2019 @11:12AM (#21505963)
To add to this, ads are currently the best way to collect micropayments from users online without requiring you (the website maintainer) to have a database or profile on each customer, or to handle complicated return processes, or to deal with merchant accounts. You just make an adwords account, serve content to people, and that's it.

I'm convinced that in a world where collecting anonymous micropayments was as easy as serving ads, the web would look at lot different.

People look at this as a choice between paying $5 a month for every website they visit, or getting it "free" with ads. But in a world with good micropayments, most websites wouldn't cost $5. Outside of the biggest players, most sites aren't currently making $5 a month per user via ads.

Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by pritambaral on Monday November 11, 2019 @08:44AM (#21504749)
> I'm happy to let a few ads slip through ...

But should that mean letting the fox guard the henhouse though? The problem here is that the largest ad provider also controls the largest ad display platform (i.e., Chrome), and is using the latter to benefit the former.

Re:Google Begins Testing Extension Manifest V3 in Chrome Canary by JustSomeNobody on Monday November 11, 2019 @09:21AM (#21504992)
Ironically, developers helped create the henhouse they’re now worried the fox might get, by only using Chrome.