I'm be curious if you could have pushed back on the bedrooms one. The term "bedroom" has a legal definition in many places (ex, must have door and closed).

In many places (e.g. in Europe) there is no standard definition of bedroom at all. Rather generic room, which is space surrounded by walls.

I would be very surprised if that was the case. It's certainly not in the US or UK: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/68/part/X in the US it"s that it needs a window + closet I think.

It should be noted that this act doesn't define what a bedroom is, it only says that a room is available as sleeping accommodation if it's a type of room that's normally used as a bedroom or a living room. This would likely rule out larger kitchens with a bed in them but I'd be surprised if a living room/kitchen combo are ruled out given that studio flats with a combined bedroom/living room/kitchen are fine.

This act defines what should be counted as 'room' for overcrowding purposes.

Now courts are not stupid. In such cases 'bedroom' would take the meaning that is generally understood. A kitchen or living room with beds in them are not understood to be 'bedrooms' if you ask someone at random, and thus advertising "3 bedrooms" when in fact there is only one with beds in the kitchen and living room would most likely be deemed misleading and false advertising.

San Fransisco in general like in Craigslist and not AirBnB has plenty of listings of apartments where a dining room + living room where they added a flimsy partition to separate the two and advertise as a bedroom. I guess no one complains tho since you just choose not to rent since renting long term is usually a look before signing proposition where as AirBnB you pay before you go and it needs to be correct site unseen

I fully agree, if somebody is falsely advertising a 3 bedroom flat/house on AirBnB they'll lose the court case purely on advertising laws, I was just replying to the linked act since it doesn't really define what a bedroom is at all.

Depends on the state, I'm sure, but in Hawaii it was a minimum of 70 sq ft with a minimum width (smallest dimension) (8ft?). In Canada (and I suspect the US), there has to be a window large enough for emergency egress.

From sibling comment:

In continental Europe, where armoires are a thing, I actually can’t remember living in any home that had a closet in any room with a bed, so I can’t see closet being in the definition of bedroom.

Did you read my comment? I never said closets are a thing in europe. I said that I think it's part of the regulation in the US. More importantly I linked to detailed regulation in the UK that defines what a bedroom is.

> Did you read my comment? I never said closets are a thing in europe.

On the contrary, you were discussing Europe specifically, and, you didn’t italicize you think, you wrote certainly:

>> ”In many places (e.g. in Europe) there is no standard definition of bedroom at all.”

> “I would be very surprised if that was the case. It's certainly not in the US or UK.”

You’re defending your second sentence, but the assertion I’m replying to is your reaction on Europe in the first one.

Remember AirBnB is worldwide and most of the world’s homes are the continental armoire model not US/UK closet model.

If this were true, it would mean that many, many bedrooms in New York City are legally not bedrooms.

I don't know much about NY but there is clearly loads of regulation and building codes defining these kind of things. I'm sure the definitions vary based on when things were built and to what purpose the definition is being used. New construction is going to be subject to much more scrutiny than anything else.

Here's some information on NY: https://www.hauseit.com/legal-bedroom-requirements-nyc/

> For a bedroom to be considered legal in NYC, it must satisfy the following requirements:

> Be a minimum of 80 square feet

> Have a minimum width of 8 feet in any dimension

> Have a minimum ceiling height of 8 feet

> At least one window measuring no less than twelve square feet

> There cannot be a need to pass through any other bedroom in order to access the bedroom

> Two means of egress, including a window and a door that can be opened from the inside

Though I did read in NY there is no storage requirements.

just guessing that the difference is short term vs long term rental. A falsely advertised long term apartment is something that people visit before renting so if it doesn't match the description they just don't rent and don't feel too annoyed. AirBnB tho people show up with suitcases and so it's very annoying but of course fixing it at the moment is a huge inconvenience

That is correct. Illegal subdivision of apartments in New York is not uncommon.

A kitchen or living room with a bed in it is not a bedroom. This is about the usual understanding of what a bedroom is and whether a listing would be misleading, not about trying to be too clever to screw customers, which does not work in front of a court (in the UK and, I expect, throughout the EU).

Likewise, stating that the property has a stove implies that it is in working order.

Now, I have no doubt that AirBnb might try to fob people off if they complain but that does not mean that they would be correct or even honest in doing so.

AirBnB was kind of built on the premise of a random air bed anywhere. So I think they should actually get a pass on this. The rest not so much.

Not at all. While you can rent an air-mattress on the living room floor, it should be advertised as such. When a listing is for an apartment with 2 bedrooms and an air mattress on the living room floor, listing it as "3 bedrooms" is bullshit and not even legal.

It should be disclosed in the listing, but in search filters it is fine. They could probably find a way to disclose it better is search filters too with a bit of design.

Europe is not all the same. A bedroom is well defined in Portugal.

Door + closet + fire-escapable window are a few reqs around here.

How does that definition work on the 30th storey of a condo building?

Fire escapes are a thing, and required in tall buildings, so it works exactly as stated.

Fire escapes are definitely not "required". You rarely ever even see them out of NYC and within NYC they've been banned since 1968.

It‘s worth noting they were banned because they weren‘t actually safer. Cramped apartment dwellers would use fire escapes as an extension of their square footage, blocking paths to safety. And they were so rarely used and tested that fire escapes becoming overloaded and detaching from the building was not uncommon.

The closet part is not actually true, it's a commonly believed myth.

There may be a few rare localities that require it, but it's not normally required.

Rather the definition requires a certain size of the room.

It’s definitely not a myth. Random examples in California:

> room can be considered a bedroom if it contains a closet, alcove, indentation or wing wall which creates an area greater than 12 inches in depth.

https://www.sanbruno.ca.gov/civicax/filebank/blobdload.aspx?...

> is capable of being used for sleeping quarters that contains a closet, or to which a closet could be added, may also be considered a bedroom.

https://www.belmont.gov/Home/ShowDocument?id=12428

A space that doesn't qualify as a bedroom is typically referred to as a "bonus room". Finished basements are one example.

In a certain US jurisdiction I have a room with a bed in it I can call a “nanny’s room” but I cannot call a bedroom on a real estate listing, as the closet for that room is through another door in a sort of hall.

In Europe though, where armoires are a thing, and I actually can’t remember living in any home that had a closet in any room with a bed, I don’t see closet being in the definition.

"The International Building Code, which is used in 49 states and Washington D.C., has no requirements for a bedroom to have a closet." https://buyersask.com/edu/code/does-a-bedroom-require-a-clos...

I keep seeing rumors that there are localities that require a closet, but no one ever actually names them.

It may be a persistent rumor in your locality as well.

According to bobvila.com, it's a difference between safety codes and assessing the property.

> Fittingly, property assessors will follow the same bedroom definition when determining the number of bedrooms in a given home—that is, it must have a door, a closet, and an egress window. It is in the interest of homeowners, sellers, and buyers to know the subtle bedroom definition differences between the safety/builder perspective and the real estate/home value perspective, and to know one’s state and local guidelines for determining what can and cannot be considered a bedroom.

https://www.bobvila.com/articles/406-what-makes-a-room-a-bed...

It might but I'm not sure Airbnb has a definition.

We arrived for a conference to an AirBnB and discovered when arriving at 10pm that it was likely illegal. ie got warnings about making noise and multiple people coming in simultaneously with suitcases, etc.

But your choices are either:

1 - pick a fight at 10pm, probably fuck around with AirBnB's shit customer support, maybe if lucky get to sleep at an alternate place by 1 or 2 am, then feel like utter garbage for the next 3 days;

2 - deal (with the implied: no more airbnb on business trips...)