News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by marcinzm on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @09:59AM (#21463197)
So no specialized platforms that cover a single topic or area? After all, then they'd need to delete off topic posts. What about user moderators deleting things? What about a mailing list owner enforcing guidelines? Or is all public online communication one giant unmanaged and unstructured sets of posts on everything and anything? Or, in reality, nothing but paid advertisements.

edit: What about downvoting? Does that not count because it's by users? However the algorithm for ranking and matching is controlled by the platform, does that count as censorship since it will promote some posts over others?

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:03AM (#21463239)
> no specialized platforms

That's not an issue with reddit - moderators are not paid, nor is reddit responsible for them - and when users subscribe in a sub, the contract is that they 'll abide by moderation rules and downvoting rules. That's not corporate censorship. The problem is when the company itself starts censoring what the users have voluntarily subscribed to read.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by NeedMoreTea on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:11AM (#21463310)
Yet HN are, as I understand it, responsible for dang and sctb. They regularly moderate away the shite - which preserves one of the less polluted spots on the net.

How do you square that circle? Surely you should object to what HN does - in fact why would a believer in no censorship even have an account here if HN are censoring (moderating and limiting) what everyone is able to say?

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:14AM (#21463332)
Yeap, having paid moderators would classify you as a publisher - you 're essentially a newspaper publishing op-eds. HN would be a publisher and i don't find that wrong.

However, HN could instead be subreddit in reddit's platform, with HN (or preferably an unrelated external entity) paying the moderators.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by iron0013 on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:34AM (#21463525)
There is no legal distinction between a 'platform' and a 'publisher' that compels a business to conduct its activity in any particular way. That is a falsehood that has somehow wormed its way into the general discourse.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by NeedMoreTea on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:23AM (#21463420)
Now consider the world wider than the USA. Imagine I am in the UK (I am), who have overly strong libel and defamation law. Other countries can too. I don't agree the law's balance is right, but that's a different discussion.

Were HN and FB a publisher, and had a UK office (and similarly in other countries with strong laws in this area) they would be liable as well as the individual posters. Those laws are why when things like Snowden and Cambridge Analytica broke they were published both sides of the Atlantic.

You've now created a problem potentially far bigger than the one you fixed.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:27AM (#21463452)
That is already the case though, isnt it? You can say things in reddit that would get you in trouble in a UK-based forum. I believe the distinction between publisher and platform is US thing.

FB And HN are subject to US law where they 're based.It's up to the UK to block access to them if they think they 're illegal - Or preferably to fix libel laws.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by NeedMoreTea on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:32AM (#21463491)
IANAL but as I understand it, the UK case at the moment is it might get me into trouble if they can pin me down, but not the discussion forum itself. There might be a legal request to reveal my identity, but purely to pin me down. As a publisher, the forum itself would be jointly and severally liable.

If Fred Smith writes a piece in The Times that libels me, I sue the newspaper, not Fred Smith.

FB and the other globals are subject to the laws of every place they operate. e.g. See all the US companies causing controversy changing their policies within China.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:34AM (#21463515)
But what if (UK citizen) fred smith writes a piece in the new york times? I don't think you can sue the NYtimes, or that NYtimes will care - I bet they receive a ton of legal complaints from foreign countries every year most of which are readily dismissable by US law.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by NeedMoreTea on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:40AM (#21463571)
Now I would need to consult a lawyer. I don't know US law on libel and defamation.

The fact that stories like CA and Snowden have been jointly published in the US, rather than say Canada or France makes me suspect that chances of a successful suit are low in the US. That's probably the point. :)

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by pjkundert on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @01:39PM (#21465555)
This problem has been solved for years, and yet no platforms implement it: K-Means Clustering

https://towardsdatascience.com/understanding-k-means-cluster...

The property "interesting" is an individual decision. A forum like HN could implement K-Means Clustering instead of having dang madly moderating stuff. Over time, those HN users interested in "technologically interesting stuff" would aggregate together, and generally only see posts that are "voted up" by others in their cluster.

All the other crap would be seen by all those HN users that migrated over from 8chan.

The problem with this, of course, is that HN would be full of all sorts of sickening crap that you and I would never see (or, at least, until a small sampling of us saw it, and all down-voted it into the 8chan netherworld).

The great thing about this -- the FBI, et.al. would have much better tools to do their jobs: they could troll these seedy underbellies of HN, etc., and actually spear-phish and destroy the scum that is posting repellent garbage.

Or, we could carry on doing what we're doing, even though it can't work. Our choice.