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Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by d--b on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:18AM (#21462184)
See but that's a libertarian issue here.

If you value freedom above all else, Google being an independent entity, should have the freedom to ban / veto whomever they want.

You can't have it both ways: let people be free to say whatever they want AND force the owners of communication channels to spread all information.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by ch4s3 on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:24AM (#21462230)
I don’t think that’s the argument they’re making. I think they would concede that Google has a property right, and may at it’s discretion moderate content. However, they would argue that Google shouldn’t exercise that right because it is harmful to the culture of free speech. This is volunteerism, which is to say they should choose to hold themselves to a standard without being forced to do so.

I’m not sure how I feel about it, but I think I’ve summarized the best version of the argument.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by ChaosDegenerate on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:36AM (#21462342)
Freedom comes with responsibility. The idea that they are not responsible for the content (i.e. you can't hold Youtube/Google legally responsible for the content they have on their platforms) while at the same time they make profit on the very same content and can censor it as they see fit -- this is idiocy in its purest form.

We hold newspapers or TV station legally liable for the content they serve. This is fair. Situation in which they couldn't be sued for the stuff they air still making money on it -- that's the current situation with them. It's even worse because they can somehow censor the content they don't like for their own political reasons.

It's like with banks. Yes, we can make money. And yes when times are bad we can get money from the government/tax payers too. This is not freedom this is fascism.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by Nasrudith on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:50AM (#21462520)
That definition of responsibility negates freedom in itself. I have literally seen it used by dictators who set libel laws to crush any negative stories.

The stance is absurd - tt is akin to saying that Kinkos should be liable for anything printed beyond "they knowingly used ink laced with weaponized anthrax" - and should be charged with terrorism because a customer who quietly printed a bomb threat formatted to look like a resume - just because they kick you out for openly printing Goatse.ck and every other old shock site which scares away the other customers.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by ChaosDegenerate on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:57AM (#21462597)
Exactly my point. But for this to work, they need to be regulated by Government as utilities.

No one has the right to turn off electric grid on your house because they are "private company". No one has the right to turn off "running water" from your sink because they are "private company" and if you don't like it, you can go somewhere else or open your own. The same way, no one has right to censor me because they are "private company" and if I don't like it I can go ahead and open my own Youtube. They should be and will be regulated as utilities.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by danso on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @09:23AM (#21462830)
What precedent are you using to imagine that if Facebook/Youtube/etc were to become public utilities, that they would be barred from censorship? Public broadcasters are currently regulated by the FEC:

https://www.fcc.gov/media/radio/public-and-broadcasting#OBSC...

> Indecent Material. Indecent material is protected by the First Amendment, so its broadcast cannot constitutionally be prohibited at all times. However, the courts have upheld Congress' prohibition of the broadcast of indecent material during times of the day when there is a reasonable risk that children may be in the audience, which the Commission has determined to be between the hours of 6 a.m. and 10 p.m. Indecent programming is defined as “language or material that, in context, depicts or describes, in terms patently offensive as measured by contemporary community standards for the broadcast medium, sexual or excretory organs or activities.” Broadcasts that fall within this definition and are aired between 6 a.m. and 10 p.m. may be subject to enforcement action by the FCC.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by jon_akimbo on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @09:21AM (#21462811)
You're conflating right to receive a basic necessity with the right to distribute a non-necessity.

You may have a right to receive water. But you don't have a right to pee in the water supply.

Nor should the private water company be obligated to ensure that your pee goes into the tap water of every household.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by shadowgovt on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @10:16AM (#21463363)
A major difference between the utilities you've described and YouTube / Facebook / Reddit / Twitter is inescapable monopoly. Barring special cases like well-water or local power generation that most people don't have access to, if the utilities cut you off, there is no alternative source. If YouTube cuts you off, you can go to another video host (including but not limited to paying for your own computer to host your data). If Facebook kicks you off, you can use email. Hell, if Facebook or Twitter kick you off, you can go use Twitter or Facebook.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by nova22033 on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:44AM (#21462435)
Freedom comes with responsibility.

And who decides what is responsible?

This may be helpful https://www.popehat.com/2019/08/29/make-no-law-deplatformed/

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:55AM (#21462572)
Power comes with responsibility, not freedom. Where did you even get that phrase?

And, does this imply that slavery comes with blissfull carelessness?

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by Udik on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @11:29AM (#21464127)
Freedom is the ability to make choices, which means having the power to choose. Great power is a great freedom in choices- and of course that freedom comes with a responsibility- you made choices, you are responsible for them.

And yes, if you have no freedom you cannot be considered responsible for what you do or don't. A slave cannot be held responsible for actions he's been ordered to perform. This might not be "blissful carelessness" but certainly is lack of responsibility.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @06:25PM (#21468706)
that implies there 's a tradeoff between freedom and responsibility. freedom is a natural right - responsibility, while highly valued, is not required.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by Udik on Thursday November 07, 2019 @01:53AM (#21471043)
We are simply confusing two different meanings of "responsibility" and misunderstanding each other.

Responsibility is both a way of acting that is mindful of the consequences, and simply the fact that people will ask you to respond of the consequences of your actions.

The two are strictly connected but are not the same. You "act responsibly" when you are prepared to answer tough questions about your actions. The simple fact that you will be asked to answer those questions, independently from your actions, is the fact of "being responsible".

So responsibility as virtue is not required by freedom; but as a simple fact of life it is its consequence, people will consider you responsible for what you do.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by merpnderp on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:25AM (#21462235)
Ironically this is somewhat similar the LGBT cake shop case where the two political sides are flipped.

A great example of how many people don’t care about right and wrong, just winning.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by jerf on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @09:00AM (#21462618)
This basically begs the question (in the true sense of the phrase). The debate we're having right now (not just about this particular article but in general) is whether that should be true. Saying that it is the current legal regime is not telling anyone anything they don't already know. We are discussing whether that is a good idea and whether it should be changed.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by degski on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:31AM (#21462288)
I agree with you that Google or Facebook should be allowed to do what they want. The problem we face is that these companies run major (the dominant) communication channels, that's (IMHO) where the problem lies [it shouldn't be like that, but heck, we cannot trust our governments better than G or FB].
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:48AM (#21462491)
Perversely, the popular press is also communicating to people that G & FB should censor more, instead of calling them out for their manipulation shenanigans.
Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by OscarCunningham on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:48AM (#21462490)
Isn't it the essence of Libertarianism that something can be wrong without making it illegal?

So there's no contradiction between "Google is wrong to censor" and "Google should be free to censor".

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by normalnorm on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:59AM (#21462613)
> If you value freedom above all else, Google being an independent entity, should have the freedom to ban / veto whomever they want.

Not so if you value freedom of human beings above all else, and even less so if you would wish to maximize human freedom across the population.

Unregulated capitalism maximizes the potential for freedom, if you win a lottery ticket, at the expense of diminishing freedom for all the losers. Libertarians tend to either already be rich or believe they have a significant shot at winning the lottery ticket.

A practical example: lack of worker rights in the US corresponds to more freedom in the abstract, but in practice creates a society where the average worker is much less free than, say, the average European worker. For example, workers in more regulated labor markets enjoy many more days of vacation on average, leading to literally more freedom to explore the world and pursue personal interests.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by dangerface on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:22AM (#21462210)
> If you value freedom above all else

Thats not libertarian, its freedom to do whatever you want that doesn't affect other people.

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by MaxBarraclough on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @05:08PM (#21468041)
If your flavour of libertarianism doesn't account for inverted totalitarianism [0], it's just not factoring in reality.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism

Re:Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies by buboard on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @08:46AM (#21462458)
That's a false dilemma. The author is not disputing Google's natural right to do so. He s arguing that they shouldn't however get a pass from libertarians. It is possible to criticize someone without demanding that someone regulates them!