News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by TulliusCicero on Friday November 01, 2019 @09:12AM (#21418326)
Neither side is actually wrong. Men dominate the corridors of power, and also the corridors of the dispossessed (e.g. the homeless, imprisoned, etc). Both of these things are problems.
Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by okintheory on Friday November 01, 2019 @09:24AM (#21418462)
This is the key point.

People in power would like to avoid divisions that are between them and people with less power. Instead they prefer divisions between different groups of people with less power, because that way these groups will be ineffective.

If the median white American man understood this, he would understand that he is siding with the wrong people.

---- PS: Yes, I know the labels for this might be "divide and conquer", and "false consciousness", but I think people have trouble relating to these terms.

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by DuskStar on Friday November 01, 2019 @03:39PM (#21422881)
> If the median white American man understood this, he would understand that he is siding with the wrong people.

I'm sorry, what groups are you saying actually support the "median white American man"?

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by yongjik on Friday November 01, 2019 @04:56PM (#21423619)
People who fight for universal healthcare, for example.

Last time I checked, they didn't say "universal healthcare if you are exceptionally poor, colored, non-American, and/or female."

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by DuskStar on Friday November 01, 2019 @05:19PM (#21423809)
Well, "people who fight for universal healthcare" seems to be pretty constrained to the left of American politics. And while it might just be outgroup homogeneity bias, the American Left has been relatively vocal in its dislike of "average white men"... (At the very least the identity politics subsection seems to be "the farther you are from 'straight white man', the better")
Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by okintheory on Friday November 01, 2019 @06:09PM (#21424211)
For sure, people who say stuff that sounds like they don't like any white men get a lot of attention. But, I suspect they form a very small minority, also on the Left.

Can I ask, what for you are some important examples of anti-"median-white-American-man" statements? I'm aware that there is a prevailing narrative in many parts of the media that this group is being singled out a lot, but personally I don't often see blanket statements of that sort.

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by ZeroGravitas on Saturday November 02, 2019 @04:20AM (#21426504)
You should think deeper about why the media you consume is presenting you with this impression.

From the outside it seems absurd but I'm not sure how to meet you in the middle for this.

Maybe you heard people complaining about how "socialized" medicine would create death panels. Did you reflect on why they were scaring old people in this way?

Or the focus on how the left are actively wanting to kill babies, rather than wanting access to reproductive healthcare. Again, why would right wing media present this patently false image? What are they trying to achieve?

If you can understand that then you might understand why the media you consume is telling you that the left hates you.

Final hint, the phrase "identity politics" is itself identity politics.

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by DuskStar on Saturday November 02, 2019 @03:14PM (#21429427)
To break things down a bit... Are there people on the right fighting for universal health care? As far as I know that was a factual statement. Same with "anti-white/anti-male idpol is mostly left" - after all, the "pro-white-male idpol" groups seem to be on the right. This doesn't mean the people fighting for universal healthcare on the left are the same people embracing identity politics! But they do seem to share the same tent.

But to address your ad hominem attacks:

> Maybe you heard people complaining about how "socialized" medicine would create death panels. Did you reflect on why they were scaring old people in this way?

Well, few things here. For one, any form of medical resource distribution creates death panels or the equivalent. There are not unlimited resources, therefore some people will not receive all they could have used. I don't think this is an argument against socialized health care. (I think that socializing health care would result in massive cost disease, and that efforts in the US to move consumers farther and farther from the prices of health care are also counterproductive, but that's unrelated)

> Or the focus on how the left are actively wanting to kill babies, rather than wanting access to reproductive healthcare. Again, why would right wing media present this patently false image? What are they trying to achieve?

I'm pro-choice, actually. Also pro gay marriage, drug legalization, good sex ed in schools, etc.

But as to why people would present abortion access as killing babies? That's a really trivial question to answer - it's because they believe abortion to be literally killing babies.

> If you can understand that then you might understand why the media you consume is telling you that the left hates you.

I wouldn't say hates - at least not the vast majority of the left. Doesn't care about? Sure.

> Final hint, the phrase "identity politics" is itself identity politics.

Are you saying that the descriptor is wrong? It's been around for a while. [0] And if it's not wrong, I don't see what the objection is.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by ZeroGravitas on Sunday November 03, 2019 @07:40AM (#21433516)
Okay so you're firmly aboard the libertarian to alt-right pipeline, I thought you might just be confused.

It's great that you still publicly identify with all the sane and sensible policies that Democrats have been fighting for for decades and have slowly achieved. It's sad that you can't support them in the American two-party system because they harbor so many communist, anti-white campaigners like the Clintons and Obamas and all those other people who would be center right in any sane political system.

But, no worries, you can easily claim to be even more right-on than them, because you're a libertarian. You can attack them for centrist stances they took two decades ago when Reason was still openly denying the Holocaust and supporting Apartheid and somehow hold the moral high ground as yet another Republican criminal gets elected to President and large numbers of the administration get arrested and jailed (weird how that just keeps happening, right?).

But you keep your eye on the real danger, there must be a sexual, racial or religious minority group that's taking things too far for your liking and that's well worth getting angry about. Luckily a bunch of Billionaires are really keen to keep that in the front of your mind at all times so you don't even need to seek this stuff out. Enjoy your anger.

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by DuskStar on Sunday November 03, 2019 @02:24PM (#21435972)
Do you have any actual responses to what I said, or did you just want to call me names? Because I fail to see how any part of this comment relates to the previous one.
Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by mongol on Friday November 01, 2019 @09:17AM (#21418395)
But interestingly, one gets much more attention than the other.
Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by TulliusCicero on Friday November 01, 2019 @09:20AM (#21418426)
Correct. The left cares about the dispossessed, at least to the extent that it gives them votes, but all the anti-men-in-power animosity does spill over I think to the effect of making it hard to drum up sympathy for men where men are suffering.

The right mostly doesn't give a shit about the dispossessed, at least as far as potential government intervention goes. They're more social darwinist; if some men are really suffering, maybe they should stop being such losers, goes the thinking.

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by ackshually on Friday November 01, 2019 @09:36AM (#21418589)
I'm not american, so correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I see in the american news many liberal strongholds have the highest homeless rates and aren't doing a lot to remedy the situation - lacking low income housing etc.

It makes me a little skeptical that "the left"[1] care that much about the homeless.

[1] I'll be honest I think "the left" and "liberal" are kind of useless catch all term at this point and lumps too many people into one group together. For instance, for this conversation I mean middle class college educated men and women living in coastal american cities that had at least semi-stable childhoods.

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by TulliusCicero on Friday November 01, 2019 @09:48AM (#21418708)
Yes, but you have to consider that the homeless aren't fixed to a certain place. A place that's more generous to the homeless will inevitably get more homeless people. Because why wouldn't you go to somewhere that treats you better, rather than the place that treats you like garbage?

This means there's a financial incentive for any given city to treat the homeless like shit. Classic free rider problem; why not let other cities deal with helping them?

If you look at the countries where they do a better job, what you largely see is not a handful of metros doing their part, while other cities and the national government completely shunt the responsibility. The whole country contributes, is at least sort of on the same page. At least, that's been my experience living in Germany and reading about other places.

So in my opinion, what we'd need to see is a federal mandate that doesn't let some cities mooch off of others' charity. But short of Bernie storming the white House and the Dems getting an overwhelming majority in both halves of Congress, it's hard to see that happening.

Anyway, I don't disagree that more liberal cities could do more, but at the same time I don't think the problem is solvable without national involvement.

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by ackshually on Friday November 01, 2019 @09:58AM (#21418832)
Very fair point, haven't thought about it that way. I wonder if any studies have been done on where the homeless in the liberal leaning cities actually originally come from.

As for the Dems in congress - You'd need the right kind of democrat also. I think Hillary clinton did a real number to that parties reputation during her time in power. The american democrats desperately need smart, ethical and above all honest new faces that will fight the rampant corruption in american politics.

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by zzyyzzxx on Friday November 01, 2019 @03:57PM (#21423065)
In some cases, homeless people are given bus tickets to liberal cities by officials

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/...

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by AlexTWithBeard on Friday November 01, 2019 @10:14AM (#21419053)
People in the thread below were complaining about how toxic reddit is. Politics is ten times worse.

Why would a smart, ethical and honest person ever get within a gunshot of politics?

And should by any accident that happen, how such a person would survive?

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by TulliusCicero on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:29PM (#21422207)
Don't think smart, ethical, and honest matters. Oh sure, those things are great and greatly preferable to the status quo. But the reason why other countries have good homeless policies and why we don't is not because they have unusually honest politicians, I don't think. They're just further left economically, and thus more supportive of the downtrodden.
Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by growlist on Friday November 01, 2019 @05:21PM (#21423831)
One theory goes that the left has no genuine interest in improving its voters' circumstances, because a more empowered individual has less need of the state to look after them, and thus would be less likely to vote for the left. The corollary is that it is in the left's electoral interests to attempt to disempower, impoverish and weaken the greatest number of voters as possible, because then said voters will see that their best interests would be served by the party that 'looks after them', and would vote for socialism en masse.
Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by bitlax on Friday November 01, 2019 @10:04AM (#21418924)
> The right mostly doesn't give a shit about the dispossessed, at least as far as potential government intervention goes. They're more social darwinist; if some men are really suffering, maybe they should stop being such losers, goes the thinking.

Well yeah, being against government intervention is sort of the classic definition of the American political right. People on the right believe that when possible you should choose private charity over government programs. They also donate more to private charities.

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by TulliusCicero on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:32PM (#21422229)
Yes, and that's what we have right now. How has that worked for us, compared to other countries?

We all know the answer is that the homeless are radically better off in those interventionist countries. Ergo, if we care about results, ours are rather abysmal.

> Well yeah, being against government intervention is sort of the classic definition of the American political right.

To a certain extent, but it also depends on the domain. The right is very much in favor of government intervention for some things, like who you're allowed to marry, or how you can have sex.

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by jraby3 on Friday November 01, 2019 @10:18AM (#21419096)
Yes but those are primarily religious organizations.
Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by bitlax on Friday November 01, 2019 @10:48AM (#21419386)
Yes they believe much of the care for the needy should be undertaken by institutions like religious organizations.
Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by tropo on Friday November 01, 2019 @08:52PM (#21425164)
Even when you exclude religious organizations, the right donates more.

It's an odd fact, isn't it? It doesn't mesh well with the portrayal of them as stingy people who don't care about others.

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by growlist on Friday November 01, 2019 @05:17PM (#21423786)
Left? Right? Sadly these days I think that the vast majority of politicians are merely playing a role when it comes to political persuasion, and would be quite happy to do a complete 180 in standpoint if it meant a sufficiently large pay off in terms of power and/or money.
Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by AlexTWithBeard on Friday November 01, 2019 @09:27AM (#21418498)
maybe they should stop being such losers

I think another motive here may be that if you provide "the dispossessed" and benefits, you create the incentive to become dispossessed.

This problem is relatively easy to solve on a small community level (all family knows that aunt Rosa isn't actually as sick as she likes to pretend), but becomes extremely complicated when scaled to the whole country.

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by sct202 on Friday November 01, 2019 @09:47AM (#21418696)
The MRA groups, on Reddit at least, seem to spend more time blaming other people for things that are affecting men versus figuring out ways to overcome the issues.
Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by harimau777 on Friday November 01, 2019 @04:39PM (#21423464)
It seems to me that in many cases the answer may be "what's the alternative?"

For example, if someone doesn't know how to find a girlfriend, then PUAs are the only game in town.

Until viable alternatives are presented I suspect that men will keep going with what's available.

Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by everdrive on Friday November 01, 2019 @11:06AM (#21419598)
The salient point of an identity group is to be angry at the other groups. This is true of all the groups, and is a very important vice to avoid. It's alluring in a way that people don't have very good defenses against.
Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by growlist on Friday November 01, 2019 @04:52PM (#21423585)
Thing is though, whenever they do do something - like say, organising a group to discuss their problems - they get attacked, ridiculed etc. in a way that no other group ever does today.
Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by akuchling on Friday November 01, 2019 @05:38PM (#21423970)
At least https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/ takes a more enlightened approach.
Re:Life expectancy for American men drops for a third year by spikels on Friday November 01, 2019 @10:04AM (#21418925)
Ditto for every identity group.