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Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by pc86 on Thursday October 31, 2019 @11:10AM (#21409642)
CAPS is not supposed to be used because you have an engine out under most circumstances - you are perfectly capable of dead-sticking a Cirrus onto a runway just like any other small GA plane. And it's not a gentle float, it's ~1700fpm or about 20mph, straight down. The airframe and seats absorb a chunk of it but compared to a 500-700fpm descent on an engine-out landing, pulling CAPS because your engine dies with any sufficient landing area in range (including open fields) will rightfully earn you quite a bit of ridicule.
Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by throw0101a on Thursday October 31, 2019 @11:52AM (#21410100)
Nope:

> > There are very few emergencies (in my opinion) in which parachute deployment would be the appropriate response unless there was an extremely unfortunate set of circumstances which led to the airplane being unable to fly or glide (like a wing snapping off)

> I've been a Cirrus instructor for 15 years. This attitude is completely wrong and is exactly what has led more people to be killed than needed to be, especially when Cirruses first came to the market and the chute was a new thing in production aircraft. We TEACH, intentionally, people to ask FIRST, "do I need to use the chute," and the answer is never "no." It's either, "Yes," or "not yet."

> There have been pilots - plenty of them - that had every opportunity to use the chute but kept gliding, or spinning, or whatever, and now they and their passengers are dead.

[...]

> Lose the engine - most of the time, pull the chute. Yes, even better than landing in a nice open field. The chute works. If I screw up the landing, or the field has ditches, furrows, irrigation, cows, power lines, fences, rocks, or who knows what else, I might just be screwed setting a plane down at 65-70kts. But not if I float down into it protected by my roll cage, high-g seats, air bags, etc.

[...]

* https://old.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/dp61qo#f5trzyz

Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by guidoism on Thursday October 31, 2019 @11:24AM (#21409784)
The insurance companies apparently want pilots to pull the CAPS rather than try to dead stick it. That’s what I was told when I got checked out in the SR22 by the flight school. They drilled it into me. What happens when blah blah blah? Pull the CAPS. That was the answer to everything.
Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by dsfyu404ed on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:42PM (#21411522)
>The insurance companies apparently want pilots to pull the CAPS rather than try to dead stick it.

Well of course they do.

CAPS does a pretty good job putting an upper bound on the worst case result. They don't care if you screw your plane up because that's a known cost and you'll pay it back through premiums if you keep flying.

Dead sticking it has a very good chance of being no more expensive than a normal landing if you find a runway and not all that expensive if you find a good field or empty highway (i.e. a big towing bill) so of course most pilots would prefer to dead stick. But this comes with a small chance of you crashing into a daycare and maxing out your policy. The insurers do not want this.

Most decent pilots with good situational will be able to make the correct call between CAPs and dead sticking it. They're telling you to go CAPS all the time because they have to deal with idiot pilots too. It's the same reason every drivers ed program emphasizes brakes, brakes, brakes, despite the steering wheel being a far better way to avoid many problems. They don't trust you to make the call.

Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by briandear on Thursday October 31, 2019 @02:14PM (#21411868)
One of my friends is a Cirrus platinum instructor, including being type rated for the Vision Jet and even he had a CAPS pull as his first choice versus landing off airport. They call it dead sticking for a reason.
Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by dsfyu404ed on Thursday October 31, 2019 @02:23PM (#21411974)
Was it his plane or a company plane? There's a big difference between taking on a little extra risk for your money vs someone else's money.
Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by whyaduck on Thursday October 31, 2019 @06:16PM (#21414350)
What's "a little extra risk"? A 5% chance you'll die? 1%? 0.1%? Compared to what? Those are actually very large risks when the cost is your life. When the survival rate of using CAPS is an order of magnitude (or more) safer? Use the chute. Not to mention how bad a decision it would be to dead stick if there are passengers on board.
Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by pc86 on Friday November 01, 2019 @09:42AM (#21418645)
> When the survival rate of using CAPS is an order of magnitude (or more) safer?

    [citation needed]
Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by whyaduck on Saturday November 02, 2019 @01:08PM (#21428772)
13:1 better survivability with CAPS deployed:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28539144

Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by guidoism on Thursday October 31, 2019 @03:31PM (#21412689)
If I had something like Xavion to help with the approach I would probably choose the dead stick approach but really, how often have any of us ever really dead sticked it? I haven't. We pull the power to idle, but that's not the same as a propeller windmilling. That propeller is a huge brake and we aren't used to it. I for one prefer five nines of survival probability to something much smaller. What are the dead stick survival stats?
Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by dsfyu404ed on Thursday October 31, 2019 @04:48PM (#21413578)
Anecdotal story:

I know of a skydive place that does or at least used to regularly (like once or twice a week) dead stick it in a C182 because they would fly with the bare minimum of fuel (when you're flying up and down all day even a little extra weight costs a lot of money).

Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by Scoundreller on Thursday October 31, 2019 @11:58AM (#21410157)
CAPS sounds great over open water or desert, but not so great over a populated area.

At least a non-pilot co-passenger might want to try their luck gliding to open area and then pulling it.

Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by DuskStar on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:16PM (#21410368)
A 20mph vertical impact into someone's roof really isn't the worst of outcomes.
Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by wtallis on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:40PM (#21410705)
Yeah, I don't think it would be any more catastrophic than a large tree crashing into the roof. It'll be messy and require extensive repairs, but you're not going to see a fireball and crater.
Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by guidoism on Thursday October 31, 2019 @03:26PM (#21412640)
I'm not sure 20mph is correct. The POH says it's the equivalent of being dropped from 10 feet. It's not something I want to experience but it doesn't really sound that bad.
Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by ceejayoz on Thursday October 31, 2019 @04:33PM (#21413436)
> The POH says it's the equivalent of being dropped from 10 feet.

A fall of 10 feet puts you at ~17 mph when you hit. 20mph is a good approximation.

Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by pc86 on Friday November 01, 2019 @09:16AM (#21418390)
Post-CAPS deployment descent is about 1700fpm which is 19.3-ish mph.
Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by guidoism on Saturday November 02, 2019 @01:37PM (#21428915)
Ok. I was wrong.
Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by Scoundreller on Thursday October 31, 2019 @09:09PM (#21415411)
I’m thinking more like power lines, or the chute catching a tall building, some industrial facilities may not be great either. Or moving traffic.

You’ll go wherever the wind pulls you. And might hit the side of something faster than 20mph before hitting the ground.

And hitting a crowd at 20mph.

Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by briandear on Thursday October 31, 2019 @02:09PM (#21411830)
Wrong. Check the Cirrus POH and exactly the opposite you said is true. In an engine out over the minimum altitude and under the pull speed, use the chute.

Chute pulls are almost 100% survivable. Landing in a field is a much lower percentage. Just hitting nearly invisible power lines can slice a plane in half. You also have a fire danger when landing off airport. And many dead engine landings result in landing short of the field.

You aren’t going to get ridicule from the Cirrus community for pulling the chute and even if you did, it’s less ridicule than crash landing into a field that looked suitable from 2000 feet up.

Re:Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability by jjwiseman on Thursday October 31, 2019 @02:56PM (#21412324)
Yes. One of my friends died landing in a field with engine out.

It's almost impossible to tell what the situation is on the ground until it's too late--an unnoticed ditch can kill you.