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Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by bob1029 on Wednesday October 30, 2019 @07:30PM (#21404155)
Being able to automate forms can absolutely revolutionize some businesses. Many business owners have no idea the extent to which automation is feasible here. I have seen fully manual paper process (printers/scanners/pen & ink/shredders/etc.) go into 100% digital realm and the impact it had on the business. It really is incredible the difference it makes. The most interesting factor was the fact that now that the inputs are captured in a computer, we can run business rules against those inputs computationally. I.e., prevent generation of forms you would have to otherwise manually revise and resubmit after the fact. Then someone figured out you could start plugging in other business systems to your rules engine and tracking state...

I think it is a fun and compelling challenge to see just how much of the business you can put "on rails" with computers and various integrations. I have some background in semiconductor manufacturing, and the degree of automation I witnessed there got to me in a really deep way. Experiencing a massive factory that can literally run for hours-to-days without a single human inside is something else. I feel a lot of businesses can strive towards similar goals. Being able to fully-automate manufacturing of silicon chips is an incredibly opulent affair, but if you can simply automate a paper-bound business process that is on a hot-path (I.e. used many times a day), it could potentially save a struggling business.

Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by dreamcompiler on Thursday October 31, 2019 @10:44AM (#21409364)
As a counterexample it's easy to get this wrong as well. In my EMT career we switched from doing run reports on paper to doing it on the computer. It was a nightmare. No attention to good UI principles had been paid. In the section on "What drugs did you administer?" we had to choose from a scrolling menu of perhaps 100 items for each drug we used (including oxygen which we used on everybody). Simply typing in their names would have been easy, but no. Every data element was like that. A report that took me 20 minutes on paper took 45 minutes on the web version. Classic enterprise software.

Edit: Above was an attempt at digitization while this thread is about form automation. Understood. My point is that there was a lot of automation that could have been employed but wasn't. With that and good UI principles, the org could have made us more efficient. They chose not to because what they really wanted was a searchable database of patients treated so they could get more funding. EMT productivity was never a consideration.

Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by Master_Odin on Thursday October 31, 2019 @09:03PM (#21415378)
Bad UI is basically consistent in all descriptions of all healthcare software. After working for a couple first responder outfits, I'm increasingly positive the companies who make this software do not have anyone on staff who have actually worked in the field, nor are they willing to interview people who have.
Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by teyc on Friday November 01, 2019 @06:37PM (#21424408)
There's a case in Australia where the scheduled claxane was not administered because the table which had the status was off screen because the table was too wide (it was scheduled, but was marked as "cancelled"). The patient died.
Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by flukus on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:07AM (#21416586)
> In the section on "What drugs did you administer?" we had to choose from a scrolling menu of perhaps 100 items for each drug we used

I've seen a similar thing at a medical insurance company, not sure if this one was access (that they made IT take over) or winforms, but to make things even worse the list was un-ordered and semi-random. I only found out about it because the main user was bitching to me on a smoke break, but it had been this way for years and cost her at least a couple of hours a day. After the 5 minutes of work to slap an order by clause in there and the weeks worth work getting it though the bureaucracy (yay for that stupid process of billing internal clients) she was in tears.

Efficient and automated claims processing was the whole reason this company existed too.

Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by dragonsngoblins on Thursday October 31, 2019 @08:53PM (#21415329)
I imagine this was partly an attempt at data normalization. If you'd been allowed to type it in they would have had to worry about differences in spelling, capitalization, etc.

I'm not saying the solution they used was a good one mind, but I bet that was part of the motivation to implement it that way

Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by dreamcompiler on Friday November 01, 2019 @01:55AM (#21416562)
I expect you're right, but there are better ways (e.g. autocomplete) to achieve that.
Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by dragonsngoblins on Sunday November 03, 2019 @06:08PM (#21437410)
Oh most definitely. I didn't want to imply they went about it in an even half reasonable way, just that the motivation of designing the interface like that had nothing to do with optimizing for time spent filling it in
Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by aspectmin on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:43AM (#21416337)
Did this software company come from a company with a three letter name? :)
Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by motogpjimbo on Thursday October 31, 2019 @06:52AM (#21407401)
> Being able to automate forms can absolutely revolutionize some businesses

I once worked for an insurance brokerage whose in-house CRM had started years before as an effort to automate paper-based forms. The company's business model was based on having their sales advisers fill out insurance policy application forms on their customers' behalf and originally this had been done using pen-and paper, which was obviously time-consuming and laborious.

At some point, someone in the IT department had had the idea of scanning the application forms to image files and writing a simple PHP application to insert those images onto web pages with HTML <input> tags superimposed over the form fields, thus allowing advisers to fill in the forms using keyboard entry.

They quickly realised that once forms are filled in digitally, (a) you can store the form data into the database and retrieve it later for further editing, (b) some of the data can be filled in automatically from the customer's records and (c) when generating quotes across multiple insurance providers, the common parts of each insurer's form can be filled in from data previously entered elsewhere.

While the idea of superimposing HTML input fields over a scanned paper form isn't one I've encountered before or since, that company was turning over $3M per month by the time I joined, so there is clearly mileage in the idea.

Incidentally, it turns out that basing your entry forms around scanned paper forms completely kills dead any of the interminable bikeshedding that takes place around UX design with complicated, multi-section forms.

Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by bob1029 on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:24PM (#21411292)
HTML is an amazing approach for fully-generated forms. But, for filling pre-existing forms, the mapping from HTML down to fixed layout on an existing document can cause lots of headache when it comes to getting really precise positioning of elements within dense forms.

We built an internal tool that effectively converts any business form into a PNG @ 300DPI, and then defines a fixed element layout on top. This allows for pixel-perfect positioning of elements you'd like to fill on top of literally anything you can get into a PNG. Each definition is effectively just a JSON model specifying where everything lives, and then it is fed into some C# System.Drawing routines to fill the template image with expected data. The output is then converted back into whatever format is most ideal for downstream delivery (i.e. merge PNGs back into pages in a combined PDF).

The downside of this approach is that rasterization of PDFs or other upstream forms items effectively strips them of any textual data that you could mine out of the document. So, there are certain use cases where this would be a bad approach. For most businesses, I don't think this is usually a concern, especially if you already have the data you used to fill the document in a good structure somewhere for alternate delivery approaches.

Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by cr0sh on Thursday October 31, 2019 @01:18PM (#21411230)
> While the idea of superimposing HTML input fields over a scanned paper form isn't one I've encountered before or since, that company was turning over $3M per month by the time I joined, so there is clearly mileage in the idea.

You can also do this with PDF files, if you have Acrobat (or at least, it was possible - last time I played with it was several years ago - 2009-ish).

You've probably seen "editable" PDF files - where there are fields you can type stuff into - much like a paper document that you'd put in a typewriter to "fill out".

Well, it's actually possible (in Acrobat) to set up a "form submit" (virtually identical - IIRC, it was an actual HTTPS POST message) that you could point to a web endpoint. Add a button to the bottom of the page to submit the form, and it could also capture and handle errors (like if the service to receive the POST is offline, or has an error, etc).

I forget was Adobe called it - but it worked rather well. I worked for a web app company who was contracted by a doctor's group to redo their website, and part of that was automating the forms. They wanted some way that a patient could download and use their standard PDF forms, to both enter and upload the information, or print it and fill it out manually and return it, if they were more comfortable with that.

They didn't want an standard web form, or anything like you mentioned - because they might change the PDF for manual copies. Instead, we supplied them a template and taught them how to use it (and not to change particular parts - the parts handling submitting/errors and such) - so they could continue to use it. The backend was a PHP/MySQL system, everything was HTTPS, and IIRC we encrypted the data on the backend. I'm not certain that it was completely HIPAA compliant, but it was certainly as compliant as "form filled out with pen and filed in folder).

So yeah - there's clearly a market for this kind of thing...

Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by rad_gruchalski on Thursday October 31, 2019 @08:57PM (#21415345)
> I forget was Adobe called it - but it worked rather well.

Livecycle Designer?

Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by phonon on Thursday October 31, 2019 @09:46AM (#21408632)
Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by hamstrungtw19 on Thursday October 31, 2019 @12:15AM (#21405702)
> Being able to fully-automate manufacturing of silicon chips is an incredibly opulent affair, but if you can simply automate a paper-bound business process that is on a hot-path (I.e. used many times a day), it could potentially save a struggling business.

That's funny. I work at a very large fab, and of all the places I've worked, this is the one that's most in need of the sort of in-office hot path optimizations you mention, and doubly worse is that it's the least susceptible to allowing someone to do anything about it.

(In fact, it's regressing. This month saw a fab-wide rollout of a document management system that has caused a ~10x increase in wall clock time for attaching files to emails or through forms on the intranet. Now consider what that means when the company exhibits a pathological form of the passing-MS-Office-documents-around-to-each-other mindset...)

Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by selestify on Wednesday October 30, 2019 @08:34PM (#21404566)
How frequent was actual human intervention required? Every few hours?
Re:Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die by bob1029 on Wednesday October 30, 2019 @08:46PM (#21404628)
Depends on lots of factors. Most maintenance is preventative in that context, so its hard to pin down a specific thing that would break down first or how long it would take. If something does break unexpectedly its usually treated as a big deal every time so it never happens again.