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Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by sokoloff on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @08:01AM (#21386145)
When businesses won't be as profitable as desired by the owners, they are less likely to be started or to choose to make that expansion.

If labor was plentiful and cost $1/hr, we probably wouldn't see nearly as many automated checkout stations or ordering kiosks. If low-skilled labor costs $100/hr, you can bet there's going to be a lot more automation in place.

It seems like most people can grasp the general slope of this demand curve, but seem to be unable (and I think in a lot of cases it's rather unwilling) to reason about whether the curve has a fundamentally different slope/shape in the $8-20/hr range.

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by geofft on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @08:11AM (#21386224)
Sure, but $1/hour is not a living wage, so in terms of benefit for workers, it's not obviously better than $100/hour. (And if you have obligations like taking care of your family, you might actively prefer to live off welfare/unemployment/voluntary private charity from the goodness of John Galt's heart/whatever than work a $1/hour job for most of your day.)

The curve that's actually interesting is the expected value to an individual worker of the minimum wage, i.e., the wage multiplied by "how likely am I to be employed fully" (approximately 100% at $1/hour, quite a bit less at $100/hour). Obviously, that curve starts at zero, goes up linearly for a bit, then heads back towards zero in the limit. The question is where "a bit" is and what the argmax is.

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by navigatesol on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @08:21AM (#21386292)
>Sure, but $1/hour is not a living wage

No, it isn't. But neither is $0/hour because you don't have a job, and society doesn't get the product that the $1/hour job produces.

Ideally, the system would pay the workers the marginal value of their input for the work done, and the government would "top up" the wages to whatever the living wage is. Everyone wins. Of course, this is hard to measure and apply.

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by ahje on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @08:30AM (#21386361)
Wouldn't that simply result in businesses paying as little as possible, which would then result in the need to tax the businesses harder?
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by coldpie on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @08:47AM (#21386493)
Yes. The thing opponents of a living wage don't realize is that the gov't has to make up the gap. The gov't indirectly subsidizes businesses who pay under a living wage, which actually incentivizes them to do so. Enforcing a living wage actually means fewer subsidies and a more efficient and level market.
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by navigatesol on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:30PM (#21389015)
>Enforcing a living wage actually means fewer subsidies and a more efficient and level market.

This is some real galaxy-brain level thinking. Enforcing a minimum wage is a more efficient market.

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by AJ007 on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @10:04AM (#21387270)
Is the government indirectly subsidizing businesses, or are they indirectly subsidizing landlords and the lenders to whom the landlords owe debts?

For the vast majority of the world, outside of ultra-expensive first world metropolises, $15 an hour is beyond a comfortable living wage.

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by geofft on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:41PM (#21389147)
Is the question whether it's possible to reduce the cost of living / why the cost of living is so high?

That's largely because the basic necessities of living (housing, clothing, food, transportation) are needed in roughly the same amount by all people, and don't scale with class/income/wealth. I live in a 1-bedroom apartment and eat about three meals a day and wear jeans that cost about $50. I have friends who make an order of magnitude more and less than I do. They don't live in a 10-bedroom or 0.1-bedroom place, respectively. They don't eat 30 or 0.3 meals a day, respectively, and their meal themselves don't cost ten times more or less - maybe there's a factor of two or three. The ones who make ten times more than I do might occasionally buy $500 jeans, but even they won't wear it for everyday use, and the ones who make ten times less generally don't buy $5 jeans either.

So, demand is roughly the same from everyone / doesn't scale very much, and the rich can afford to pay quite a bit more. So a market that has rich people in it will have a higher cost of living.

If you want to stop this, the obvious solution is to prevent income inequality (in all its forms - Paul Graham points out, correctly, that this would require us to rethink the very idea of for-profit unicorns - see https://twitter.com/paulg/status/886953410356011008 and https://twitter.com/paulg/status/645343476662427648). Useful tools include extremely high wealth and income taxes. (And, as someone who by any objective standard makes a lot of money, this is why I'm personally in favor of my own marginal tax bracket being 90% or higher - because it means that people who make even more money than I do can't as trivially outbid me for housing, etc.)

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by mywittyname on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @09:56AM (#21387185)
> Ideally, the system would pay the workers the marginal value of their input for the work done,

I strongly agree with this, but this requires altruistic employers, or unions to accomplish. And this results in jealousy and hostility towards workers in high-margin industries. Workers in general have no idea what their value-add to the company really is.

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by sokoloff on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @10:02AM (#21387249)
No business can be sustained if it pays out 100% of marginal value created for every laborer.

Some portion of that marginal value must be retained by the business to pay fixed costs of the business and likely financing costs as well.

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by Spooky23 on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @08:21AM (#21386291)
We don’t allow for slums like what you see in Brazil or India, so there is a high floor where wages essentially are less productive than not working.

So when you push the value of labor to a leave where people cannot afford to live, folks in the US either end up on social services, social security disability, or are incarcerated.

Whenever there are changes to minimum wage, the parade of chamber of commerce types bemoan the horrors that will befall them. Yet somehow burgers get flipped and shelves get stocked.

[dead]
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by mywittyname on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @10:04AM (#21387268)
> Many on the left are supporting open borders.

No we aren't.

> Which is guaranteed to attract a huge amount of low skilled labor. Which guarantees low wages (simple supply-demand). And if you artificially control wages, it will result in unemployment of the unskilled.

Right now, the government is artificially suppressing wages by threatening to deport immigrants. Employers take advantage of government enforcement by promising to hide the worker in exchange for poor wages and living conditions.

Giving immigrant workers visas, thus rights is a solution to this. No more artificially suppressed wages because the workers don't fear the government

> Why do you think we have tent towns all over California?

Because they won't allow for enough housing to be built.

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by bufferoverflow on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @10:17AM (#21387402)
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by wan23 on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @01:20PM (#21389644)
They only started charging people with a crime for crossing the border in 2005 under the Bush administration. I don't think you would say that we had open borders before then, and a return to that previous policy is what people mean by decriminalization.
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by apacheCamel on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @11:46AM (#21388467)
Just quickly looking at this link, I don't see anywhere it says open borders.It does however say "Decriminalize illegal border crossings" which is not the same as open borders.
Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by imtringued on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @08:14AM (#21386243)
>they are less likely to be started or to choose to make that expansion.

You just showed us a counter example. The structure of the market changes toward automation or away from it but the businesses are still being started as usual.

Re:$15 minimum wage didn’t hurt NYC restaurants by navigatesol on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @08:25AM (#21386318)
>The structure of the market changes toward automation or away from it but the businesses are still being started as usual.

Whether this is possible will depend on the cost of capital and state of technology.