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Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by roenxi on Monday October 28, 2019 @07:02AM (#21375859)
The congressional hearings are a hostile environment. The only reason to have Zuckerberg there is to get camera footage of him looking shifty and to pressure him to do whatever the politicians want him to do.

His tactical and strategic goal is not to deliver 'zingers', it is ideally for the situation to go quiet and be forgotten by everyone. Failing that, an acceptable fallback is for any anti-Facebook action by government to get mired in endless committee investigations that are boring, neverending and unproductive to slow down any hostile regulation that might eventuate. Failing that, regulation that is onerous but favours Facebook by locking out any competition from the American markets. None of these will be achieved by interesting public exchanges with Congresspeople.

Public government hearings are not where the serious moves are made. It is more a show-and-tell for the politicians to communicate to their voters what is being negotiated in the backrooms where real work happens.

Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by supercanuck on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:18AM (#21376186)
Only one of these parties to the negotiation works on behalf of the American people. Zuckerberg said he has 3B customers.

You seems bored with the process but I would argue the job politicians are doing is equally important if not more so than the construction of an Online Ad Delivering Skinner Box, the “real work” you allude to. (Current top most on HackerNews explains how much people despise ads and pay money to avoid them)

Holding powerful people accountable, publicly, creating laws and regulations and governing the rules of our society is very important to operating this country.

Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by basch on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:18AM (#21376657)
Did you watch the hearing? Very few people said anything that wasnt a 1) scripted grandstand that didnt even have a question 2) had already been covered in another hearing or 3) was a misunderstanding of the business and its technology. Some of them did have good points sprinkled in. But to call what they did a "good job" is an extreme overstatement.
Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by objektif on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:54AM (#21376435)
Only if the said lawyers were doing those for the benefit of the people. Many of those lawyers would kiss Zucks ass for a million. Hearings are just theaters until we get money out of politics.
Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by supercanuck on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:57AM (#21376462)
And in a representative democracy, there is an ability for the public to remove said lawyer. We need to do that.

Private Corporation there is no such method.

Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by criddell on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:45AM (#21376344)
> The congressional hearings are a hostile environment.

That's true, but if an honest answer to any of the hostile questions makes Zuckerberg look and feel bad, then maybe he should fix his company.

Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by roenxi on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:04AM (#21376529)
Having watched quite a bit of parliamentary footage, the style of question that can be asked could reasonably include such curly ones as "Research suggests that Facebook harms the mental development of adolescents. Did you stop to think about the potential damage to teenage girls when you were crafting your extractive corporate empire?"

Now in theory someone asked that could answer without accidentally agreeing that their company is extractive/they are harming young girls/they are recklessly not considering the impacts of their work. Bonus points if they can answer without getting shouted down for not directly answering a yes/no question with a yes/no. Lose a point if the answer gets testy and they look like they are defensive or flustered.

They also have to do that while being completely honest, without getting tongue-tied and correctly assessing the question in a very short time frame.

Zuckerberg isn't a barrister, he didn't found an empire on the ability to think quickly under a barrage of questions and he may just not be an expert at it (most clever people aren't). He is far better off just looking a little wilted and evasive. People who try to be clever tend to end up looking worse.

Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by nicoburns on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:20AM (#21376679)
> Now in theory someone asked that could answer without accidentally agreeing that their company is extractive/they are harming young girls/they are recklessly not considering the impacts of their work.

The right answer to this question is to accept that the company is extracting / harming people. And admit that they didn't stop to think about that when they were building it. That's understandable - they had no idea the impact that facebook would have on society when they were building it.

You can then go on to have a productive collaborative discussion about what to do about it (which isn't obvious or easy). The environment is hostile because Zuckerberg isn't engaging in the process, and is stonewalling congress with "we have a process for this".

He's not being honest, and I suspect (and hope tbh) it will eventually be the downfall of his company.

Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by roenxi on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:48AM (#21376922)
> The right answer to this question is to accept that the company is extracting / harming people.

If the answer is predetermined and known it isn't a question. It is some sort of formal whipping and there is no point giving any answer.

From the peanut gallery it is plausible that Facebook is a net win or a net loss for adolescents and it is possible that the company has a staff psychologist who has actually thought about its impacts. That question is so hard to answer in the negative I seem to have 2 people answering in this comment chain as though the frame is obviously correct and Zuckerberg needs to answer yes then atone for his sins. Public hearings are not the place to engage with these sorts of questions (there might be consequences if he makes a mistake in his answers).

Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by JohnJamesRambo on Monday October 28, 2019 @10:50AM (#21377486)
I haven’t seen any studies showing Facebook is a net win for anyone. But I search pubmed and see page after page showing it actively harms those that use it. A close analog is the literature for tobacco smoking.
Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by DuskStar on Monday October 28, 2019 @12:28PM (#21378430)
> The right answer to this question is to accept that the company is extracting / harming people. And admit that they didn't stop to think about that when they were building it. That's understandable - they had no idea the impact that facebook would have on society when they were building it.

The right answer to "have you stopped beating your wife?" is not "yes" if you don't actually beat your wife.

Similarly, the answer to "did you know the thing you were doing was evil?" is not "no" if the thing you did was not evil. Answering like that is conceding the point.

Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by nicoburns on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @05:16PM (#21392124)
If everyone knows you're in the wrong, then it's better to concede the point than stubbornly go on pretending like everything's ok. If you do the latter then it might help you in the short-term, but it's a great big red flag telling everyone that you can't be trusted.
Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by criddell on Monday October 28, 2019 @03:52PM (#21380891)
> Answering like that is conceding the point.

But they have conceded the point. I think that's why things like Cambridge Analytica were mentioned so many times during the hearing.

Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by DuskStar on Monday October 28, 2019 @05:22PM (#21381837)
There's a difference between "yes, Cambridge Analytica used our platform to do bad things and we facilitated that" and "our platform is fundamentally bad for you", though.
Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by nicoburns on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @05:17PM (#21392140)
But if you can't give a convincing answer to "What are you doing to prevent that happening again?", then everyone's going to make that conclusion anyway.
Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by setr on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:45AM (#21376903)
Admitting fault, and then retroactively be punished for it at the tune of X million "potentially harmed"? If this were a board meeting and it was simply to say what should be fixed, understood or analyzed going forward, then admission of failure is fine; but this is about meting out punishment, in which case you tell the cops nothing.

Anything you say can and will...

Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by mattferderer on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:23AM (#21376705)
Is it just me or do yes/no questions that don't allow a response make the person asking the question look even worse than the person replying?

If the person doesn't answer the question, go ahead & berate them. Just don't expect a complicated question to be answered with a simple yes/no.

Likewise it's terrible to judge a politician based on their yes/no voting record without understanding why they voted for/against something.

Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by criddell on Monday October 28, 2019 @10:29AM (#21377304)
Most of the time it seems like a question is complicated only if you realize that what you are doing is wrong, but it makes you a lot of money so you don't want to change.

One example, Ocasio-Cortez asked: Can a politician lie about Election Day on a Facebook ad?

The answer is clearly yes. It isn't complicated.

Or this one: Does Facebook see a problem with its lack of fact-checking capabilities?

How can the answer to this be anything except yes?

Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by mindblock on Monday October 28, 2019 @01:47PM (#21379501)
Why the hell would you want a private company to censor political advertisement? Are they required by law to do that? Why is censorship bad if enacted by the government but it is ok when a private corporation does it?

Imagine that Facebook is required by law to check every fact in every advert that is on their platform. Is that even possible? Would they have the resources to hire unbiased, critical-thinking people who are capable of doing htat? How expensive is that? Would they just rely on the cheaper option - algorithms.

A friend of mine got banned from Facebook for a month for sharing a meme, posted by somebody else, that had a swastika in it. The meme was of the sort "Nazis were horrible idiots". He appealed the ban, on the grounds that the original post was not taken down (he just shared it) and that this had nothing to do with nazi propaganda. It was, in fact, the opposite. An actual human being looked at that appeal and still confirmed the ban.

What makes you think the process will be any more efficient and rational with political advertising? Relying on companies to police content is absurd in every respect, from freedom of speech rights to just plain capability. There's an entire court system built up with the sole purpose of determining truth and even that isn't 100% accurate. Trust the same responsibility on a corporation?

Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by criddell on Monday October 28, 2019 @02:07PM (#21379744)
All I'm saying is that Zuckerberg could have answered clearly and correctly with yes or no answers for some of the questions but he didn't.
Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by criddell on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:10AM (#21376588)
> without accidentally agreeing that their company is [...]

I'm saying maybe Zuckerberg should acknowledge the nature of his company. Then openly try to fix it.

Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by randallsquared on Monday October 28, 2019 @10:09AM (#21377134)
The example question may have fallen too close to actual beliefs to be properly illustrative. If you mentally substitute something that you believe Facebook is not doing which would definitely be harmful, the "no short, truthful answer" result may be clearer.
Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by Pigo on Monday October 28, 2019 @09:19AM (#21376661)
I wouldn't defend Facebook for anything. But when you see reps like AOC hurl questions at him, and not even care if he answers them, it really highlights how these events only serve to create headlines or steer a narrative. You'd think they want information out of him if they wanted to accomplish something.
Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by acdha on Monday October 28, 2019 @02:02PM (#21379681)
If you think she didn’t care about the answers, you missed most of what’s going on. The process is similar to a trial: she knows full well what he’s trying to avoid admitting and was very carefully inching him into a situation where he had to either answer honestly or admit that his previous answers had not been correct. Each time he gave their usual spin rather than answering she recognized it as such and moved him on to something which highlighted the inconsistencies in his answers.
Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by criddell on Monday October 28, 2019 @01:51PM (#21379554)
Some of the questions she hurled at him were very easy to answer "yes" or "no" to and he chose not to because the answer makes Facebook look bad.
Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by C1sc0cat on Monday October 28, 2019 @08:14AM (#21376166)
Yes I suspect the less televised select committees the UK have is a better solution.

I recall seeing George Galloway (Uk MP) who was called to one of These and he used his experience in the HOC to rip the good old boy asking the questions to pieces.

Re:The Mark Zuckerberg Is a Lot Less Impressive Than the Mov... by Balgair on Monday October 28, 2019 @04:26PM (#21381253)
> The only reason to have Zuckerberg there is to get camera footage of him looking shifty and to pressure him to do whatever the politicians want him to do.

Bingo.

It's a pretty classic deal, we've done these things in the US for a while when it comes to new tech and other things. Here's the terms: You get, essentially, a monopoly. In that congress leans heavily on you to write up the laws for the new fangled thingy. So, you write yourself into law such that only you can do the thingy legally. For this monopoly, you get, pretty much, guaranteed profit. Not much, 5%, something about that; but your company gets it forever.

You, your kids, your grandkids, their grandkids, however you bequeath the stocks, those rugrats will never be poor. Stupid, drunks, coke addicts, adrenaline junkies, maybe, whatever, up to you, but never poor. Dream weddings, the best colleges, vacations of legend, you name it. In exchange for this wealth, you damn well better make sure that you run this company how congress damn well wants you to run it: cheap, good, or fast (pick two).

For the robber barons, it was making sure that the trains ran on time and that you weren't trying to jack the cattle car prices just before the stock show. For Bill Gates, it was making sure the DoD could use the OS and get some damn support phone calls at 2am. For AT&T it was making sure the long distance calls went down in price. For Rockefeller it was making sure the oil kept on flowing and that those poor folks out in Billings got their heating oil for a reasonable price. For Monsanto, it was making sure they stopped suing all the farmers that I put in my campaign ads.

To leverage this power, they get you in front of both houses, have you answer questions for hours and hours, and eventually get you in a few lies. It is a super big crime to lie to congress. You go to big boy jail for as long as they fell like putting you there, maybe even for a week (the horror!).

So, you play ball. You get up there, they ask you all kinds of stuff, you lie, they now have power over you too. So you get together, write the laws, and poof, you are never poor again. Go take up painting, water skiing, scotch collecting, whatever.

That's the deal: You're perma-rich, but you do what we say.

So, it's super strange to see Zuck not playing ball here.

It's likely that he's not gotten the memo here (Hanlon's razor and all). But I think he's a tad smarter than that. I think it's because congress is asking him to shut all the grassroots rabble down, to get the Russians out of their voters' heads, to get Gramps to stop sending Cameroonian scammers $5k in Walmart gift cards. But Zuck has no clue how to go about doing that except for making the company 50x larger, and thereby crashing it. The moderation that congress is asking for, neigh demanding, as basic terms of the deal, is just not possible for what he can charge in ads. Zuck just can't moderate the whole of the thing to where Congress will sign off. Look at China, to get their moderation working they have thousands and thousands of people working at it all the time. It just plain takes a LOT of cheap eyeballs. I takes government money, not ad money.

So Zuck is stuck.

He's trying to talk to right wingers, hoping that they'll buy him some time to get the AI stuff kinda, sorta, cross-your-fingers, working. But he knows, he can't close his end of the bargain. Maybe he can persuade congress to nationalize him, like we did with lighthouses and the post office, but man alive, that's an uphill battle. So, here we are, hoping for quantum computers or some other magical thing to happen.