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Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by glitcher on Thursday October 17, 2019 @11:34AM (#21283142)
I blame Star Trek. Simply speaking out loud to ask the computer anytime something was needed, it seemed like magical tech. We just didn't anticipate the companies and extra consequences that would come along with it.

I would love to see a parody of Star Trek where all the tech is run by an advertising company exploiting all the crew members individually by capturing all their private data around the clock.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by mojuba on Thursday October 17, 2019 @11:50AM (#21283312)
I think it looks comfortable in the Star Trek universe because it is implied that voice activated stuff is controlled by a super-AI. That is, the AI won't give humans access to the audio. Which in turn means we are going to have a super-AI that can restrict our rights and itself have access to vast amounts of information about us. I.e. Star Trek is a society essentially controlled by the AI, as it will be above us.
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by shadowgovt on Thursday October 17, 2019 @11:58AM (#21283384)
It looks comfortable in the Star Trek universe because everyone trusts Starfleet and the ship's computer.

I mean, if you don't trust the computer to look after your interests with regards to your voice interactions, why are you trusting it when it also controls life support and airlocks? ;)

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by sdenton4 on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:04PM (#21283451)
Another classic SF example of a voice interface: "I'm sorry, Dave..."
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by K0SM0S on Thursday October 17, 2019 @09:37PM (#21287916)
But what's an AI, what's 'artificial', when does something become so if it's made by/of 'natural' things? Which reminds me of BSG, they have airlocks too.
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:27PM (#21284306)
It isn't. In fact, people there are uncomfortable about computers giving them orders (TNG S03E06). It works because in Star Trek, the society works. For instance, a ship's captain could easily access plenty of surveillance records about their whereabouts and activities, but as a matter of course, they don't. Cases where someone abuses technology for ulterior reasons are presented as negative, and protagonists do their best to thwart such misuse.
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by sterlind on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:28PM (#21285001)
In TNG they ask the computer for someone's location every other episode, usually without hesitation. Didn't go so well for Barclay, when they walked into his cringy holodeck fantasy program.
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by outworlder on Thursday October 17, 2019 @07:32PM (#21287313)
> In TNG they ask the computer for someone's location every other episode, usually without hesitation.

Which is appropriate. There's nothing wrong about locating a crew member on a _military vessel_.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 17, 2019 @03:15PM (#21285433)
They do, but they never abuse this capability.
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by godelski on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:13PM (#21285929)
I'd disagree with this. Frequently they look through peoples records. Whenever someone dies it is the first thing they do. They also on one hand talk about holo decks being a private space but how often do we see them walking in on peoples' sims. You could totally just shut down the sim from the outside if the person inside is not responding and that would more readily respect that person's privacy (but isn't good for entertainment nor shows that Star Fleet is also composed of "humans").
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by ravenstine on Thursday October 17, 2019 @08:36PM (#21287651)
When someone dies or goes missing, not even an hour goes by before someone like Geordi or Riker is sifting through their personal log entries. :)
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by godelski on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:14PM (#21295493)
QUICK! Let's look at their personal logs!

Like come on guys, there's more than personal logs. There should be more barriers before you go there. But to also be fair, it is stuff they know is going to be used in that way and it isn't just a log of everything they've said in their room. So there is a little more consent involved. I don't think you can really give consent to always listening devices.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by pixelbath on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:00PM (#21283413)
I disagree. Given it takes place hundreds of years into our future, I'd assume speech recognition is just a "solved problem" and not something to worry about. Plus, there's also the Federation -> navy comparison. If speech recognition is mandated in Federation vessels, why would the crew worry about who's listening?
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by Sargos on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:46PM (#21283858)
>a society essentially controlled by the AI, as it will be above us.

This is the highest probability of the realistic outcome of AGI as it will advance in capabilities so much and so rapidly that we won't be able to keep up. I personally think it will be benevolent and care for us like we do for our pets which won't necessarily be a bad thing.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by pcnix on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:56PM (#21284650)
If you're interested in reading about AI goal theory further, I suggest Superintelligence, orthogonality and CEV as books/topics you could explore.
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by Sargos on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:01PM (#21284714)
These are fantastic recommendations, thanks!
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by api on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:28PM (#21283688)
I think it looks comfortable in the Star Trek universe because Star Trek portrays a society that is not run by mobsters, warlords, delusional ideologues, and sociopaths.

We are still very much savages. Clinical psychopaths and delusional narcissists run our institutions and major decisions are made on the basis of fanatical superstitious ideologies and mindless herd behavior.

In short I won't put an Internet connected microphone in my house and I'm very wary of privacy leakage in general because I don't trust the people who run our world (including both governments and corporations). I don't think this is irrational. Glancing around it seems like a decent number of world government and corporate leaders belong in prisons and mental institutions, not powerful offices.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by CobrastanJorji on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:35PM (#21283754)
> Star Trek portrays a society that is not run by mobsters

But also portrays societies run by and indeed composed entirely of mobsters (see "A Piece of the Action" TOS S2E17).

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:18PM (#21284217)
It does, but the protagonists are part of the utopian society; in that context, technology actually works to benefit people.
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by thaumasiotes on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:52PM (#21285231)
> Star Trek portrays a society that is not run by mobsters, warlords, delusional ideologues, and sociopaths.

Interestingly, while this is certainly the background assumption of Star Trek, it is much less valid in episodes where the crew must interact with their own government.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by api on Thursday October 17, 2019 @11:36AM (#21283171)
No relationship. Why does the device have to record and send everything to the cloud to provide this experience?

I suspect the answer is a mix of "we want to invade privacy" and "it makes the devices cheaper to build since you can put really wimpy chips in them."

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by shadowgovt on Thursday October 17, 2019 @11:52AM (#21283337)
In the short run, it gives the company three direct benefits for making the technology work (besides the "They can advertise at you better" one that people like to drumbeat on).

1) Context is nearly invisible, and is constructed from dozens to hundreds of data points. Holding state on the user (not just from direct interaction with the agent, but from other services the agent can be aware of) makes a lot more context possible. My assistant knows about my calendar, where I've been recently, and my recent emails; it can make much better educated guesses about what I mean if I say "What's travel time to Oakland?"

2) Getting the voice recognition tech itself from 90% accurate to 99.9% accurate requires awareness of the tens of thousands of real-world complicators that never show up in laboratory testing. As Google showed off by bootstrapping their voice recognition tech via Goog-411, they know how to take megabytes / gigabytes of "dirty signal" and use it to refine their algorithms against unforeseen corner cases.

3) Releasing new assistant features can be done atop existing collected data, without requiring months of lag for enough state to build up for the feature to be useful.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by api on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:18PM (#21283585)
All of these are addressable engineering challenges if privacy were a priority. It's just that privacy is not a priority.

(1) is not that hard, just subscribe to feeds or query cloud services from the device. (2) is harder but could be done by treating the devices as a cluster or sending data up only when it can't be easily recognized and storing it only long enough to be useful in training (and storing it anonymously), and as for (3) the device could store data encrypted in the cloud and that would be fine. A new or updated device just downloads and decrypts the index to its data. There are other workable approaches.

I think the best way to change that is legislation. We need HIPAA-type liability laws applying to all privacy-sensitive data: recorded audio, recorded video, location, etc. Leak someone's location or a recording of audio from their house? That'll be $10,000 per person per incident.

That would instantly transform privacy invasion from an asset to a liability and incentivize companies to minimize data collected and when it must be collected to provide the service minimize the length of the time it is stored.

As it stands literally all economic incentives jump up and down and scream "invade the user's privacy s much as possible!" These are:

(1) Data is valuable and advertisers will pay for it or pay for data-driven ad services.

(2) Engineering privacy-invasive systems is easier than engineering privacy-respecting systems. This is a subset of "engineering insecure systems is easier than engineering secure systems" as privacy is a dimension of security.

(3) Privacy sensitive approaches usually require more compute and storage at the edge, increasing device build cost.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:34PM (#21284390)
Let's not forget the other important issue: aligned with privacy-invasive technology is the business incentive towards turning products into services. This is what drives most of the bad engineering in IoT products - perhaps even more than the secondary revenue stream of selling users' data. When you make your device depend on the Internet for its most basic functions, you secure yourself a recurring revenue stream.

I'd like to see regulations addressing this issue directly, in addition to more strict pro-privacy regulation. For instance, I'd love to see it so that data, software and compute become independent - instead of current vertical integration. That is, I want to a) own my data, b) choose where it'll be processed, and c) have the software processing it come to the data - this way the vendor supplying software for c) won't be able to take the data and sell it or hold it for ransom.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by shadowgovt on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:55PM (#21284624)
Some significant incentives or legal controls would likely be necessary to realize that. Companies have zero incentive (beyond possibly performance if network bandwidth is an issue, and it's not) to (c), since that gives you carte blanche to steal their implementation, reverse-engineer it, and use it outside their control. I don't anticipate they'll facilitate that voluntarily.

It's also a lot easier to debug and improve software running on machines in a cloud one owns than on local heterogeneous architectures out "in the wild." Ask anyone who's done backend web development vs. frontend how fun it is to get "It don't work" bug reports from end-users with no logs and only spotty event metrics to guess what failure mode they got into and how they could get out of it (including failure modes such as "their ad blocker decided to kill half your functionality because your JavaScript's name had 'ad' in the URL").

There's a lot of incentives aligned for thin clients and fat servers.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by shadowgovt on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:08PM (#21284112)
"Just subscribe" is already asking more detail engagement from users than they want to contribute. Most users do not care enough about implementation details to want the device to not be working until and unless they tell it to.

I agree that if you want to change the model, law is the way to go. It'll hold back progress, but if that's the price we want to force people to pay, we could.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by ornitorrincos on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:21PM (#21285985)
isn't that what in this sitee is the maligned GDPR does?
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by Enginerrrd on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:35PM (#21283751)
I feel like another motivation is to keep the neural net parameters, AKA the most valuable part of the speech recognition algorithm, off-device. It'd have to be huge otherwise, and could be easily duplicated then used as a starting place for a competing product.
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by heavyset_go on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:52PM (#21283941)
"Violate the user's privacy in order to build a product" is lazy engineering.

There are plenty of avenues to collect the data needed at that scale, it's just that none of them are as cheap as simply spying on users.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by shadowgovt on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:04PM (#21284063)
Lazy engineering gets to market first, and if most users don't find it harmful, the company wins?
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by heavyset_go on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:24PM (#21284288)
Yes, spying on users is a cheap way to get results.

The fact that incentives exist to violate user privacy is not an excuse to violate user privacy.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by shadowgovt on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:52PM (#21284589)
Giant piles of cash can buy many excuses. ;)
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:29PM (#21284337)
Lazy, half-assed, corner-cutting everything gets to market first. This is a problem. It's also why markets accrue regulations over time.
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by shadowgovt on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:53PM (#21284607)
I agree, and it's likely that's the most correct answer if people want to see the market change.

The second most correct answer is to just opt-out if you feel spied on and get to feel very smug watching people who didn't opt-out get burned by their choices. Honestly, I recommend that solution unless one encounters a situation where opt-out is impossible.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by api on Thursday October 17, 2019 @03:44PM (#21285668)
We seem to have no good solution to this. Capitalism/cowboy development: ship crap fast, break stuff, accrue regulations. Socialism/planned economy: have meetings to plan meetings to discuss requirements forever and nothing ever happens.

While both were government funded, the "cowboy" approach of ArpaNet and IP vs the OSI network protocol consortia are a great case study.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by reaperducer on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:30PM (#21283705)
All of these items can be used through using test panels, or even dogfooding. There's no need to violate the privacy of millions of people.
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by yellow_postit on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:40PM (#21283794)
That’s not going to produce a good model. Test panels and dogfooding are both small scale and introduce biases based on who uses them. Until the gains stop coming primarily from supervised deep learning we won’t move away from the winner being whomever has the largest, most diverse dataset and compute resources.
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by Buge on Thursday October 17, 2019 @11:45AM (#21283274)
> Why does the device have to record and send everything to the cloud to provide this experience?

It's everything after the hotword, not everything.

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by RhodesianHunter on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:15PM (#21283555)
You're getting downvoted, but this is literally baked into the hardware.
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:35PM (#21284401)
Except when it isn't, or another "convenient" bug makes everything a hot word, turning the device into an always-recording Internet stream.
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by Buge on Thursday October 17, 2019 @09:31PM (#21287889)
A "bug" in your phone could do the same.
Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:15PM (#21284191)
It works in Star Trek, because as 'api says, their society is sane. United Federation of Planets is an utopia, where people don't try to abuse and profit off each other.

For a proper Star Trek comparison, imagine how comfortable Federation citizens would be with using ambient computing technology created and sold by the Ferengi, who are also known to be performing surveillance for Romulans in exchange for money.

(For non-Trekkies here, Ferengi is a species of extremely greedy and exploitative capitalists; Romulans are what you'd get if you reified the Five Eyes into a species, and put them into state of cold war with the Federation.)

Re:Google chief: I'd disclose smart speakers before guests e... by K0SM0S on Thursday October 17, 2019 @09:39PM (#21287925)
That parody needs to happen on Ferenginar.