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Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by karmakaze on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:52PM (#21273992)
Actually FP is more often verb-verb as in compose these verby thing together in this way to make a new verb then finally give it a starting noun.
Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by DanielBMarkham on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:27PM (#21275148)
This is an important point. When done well, in FP the data "disappears", i.e. the types control flow and the functions talk about what you're doing. So there's no "find me what I c an do with this object" instead it's "What am I returning?" It sounds the same but it isn't.

Yes, way in the heart of a functional program there's some code sorting lists of ints or something. But by that time, it's all labeled to the point where the functions just tell you what happens. As someone browsing the source, the nouns disappear.

Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by thomascgalvin on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:03PM (#21274125)
One of the things I like about Java's streams is that it makes the verb-chaining more obvious, at least to me.

list.stream().filter().mapToInt().sum() just reads better to me than sum( mapToInt( filter(list) ) )

Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by Garph on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @08:57PM (#21277922)
I don't enjoy balancing parentheses in Python so I tried to bring Clojure's threading macro into the language...

  def do(x, fs):
      for f in fs:
          x = f(x)
      return x
Which allows left-to-right style programming

  do(list, filter, partial(map, int), sum)
I haven't put this into production code yet, but love pipelining scripts with do
Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by sooheon on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:33AM (#21278940)
Also see PyToolz's implementation: https://toolz.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api.html#toolz.functo...

They differentiate thread first/last for Fns with arity > 1, just like Clojure.

Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by karmakaze on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @09:09PM (#21277990)
I made a thing[0] just like that to do pipelined async db queries:

  CompletableFuture<Member> asyncProjectMembers =
    Async.pipeline(Accounts.where("id >= ?", 1000);,
                   (accounts) -> accounts.loadProjects("updated_at >= ?", Instant.now().minusDays(30)),
                   (projects) -> projects.loadMembers());
If you assign the intermediates to variables, each instance will have associated with it the related collection that's queried while avoiding N+1's.

[0] https://github.com/karmakaze/safeql

Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by greggman2 on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:29AM (#21278918)
I know most will disagree but I find code the above hard to read. I'd much prefer

    const people = list.stream();
    const peopleOlderThan50 = people.filter(??);
    const average = peopleOlderThan50.mapToInt().sum() / peopleOlderThan50.length;
Or some such thing. The more complex the chain the harder it is for me to read. Does anyone else have that experience?
Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by sooheon on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:41AM (#21279490)
There's a spectrum here. Someone even more explicit than you may insist that `average` should be split up into explicit bindings for the mapping to Int, the sum, and the count.

Also, for non-toy examples, there are real benefits to composing transformations, so that you don't pay the memory and performance costs of assigning intermediate sequences.

Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by ThrowawayR2 on Saturday October 19, 2019 @08:35AM (#21298143)
You're not alone; those long chains are annoying to decipher. The other benefit of what you wrote is that if you have to track down a bug in the chain, you can actually examine the intermediate variables directly instead of having to pick apart a long chain so that a variable is exposed for you to look at in the debugger.
Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by joostdevries on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:18AM (#21279400)
I agree. Naming parts of your code is important. An alternative to named local vals is to either use named functions instead of lambdas: people.filter(olderThan50) or (I use Kotlin) use named extension functions: people.countOlderThan50()
Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by splittingTimes on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:40AM (#21280048)
In any nontrivial application, doing this for many of your types, does this not bloat your API considerably, which adds to the cognitive load?
Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by rtkwe on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:49PM (#21274691)
Yeah I much prefer that style because it reads left to right like I naturally read as an English speaker. It flows more naturally from the original object and the changes applied to it.
Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by Twisol on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:11PM (#21274949)
Agreed. Some functional languages (like F#) have a pipelining operator |> that gives the same syntactic impression:

    list |> map (1+) |> filter odd |> sum
Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by the_gipsy on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @06:53PM (#21276898)
I have found myself using pipes many times in Elm, because they make the code so much more readable. Now I understand why!

I haven't seen an autocomplete that works on pipes. But with a good type system, it is technically possible to list all compatible functions that take "noun" as first parameter.

Sometimes you supply partially applied functions (also with pipes in noun->verb order) and that's not so easy to match:

noun |> verb1 |> (otherNoun >> verb2) |> etc

But perhaps even functions that take "noun" as nth parameter could be suggested.

Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by codr7 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @06:36PM (#21276756)
And other languages, such as Forth; don't need one.

    list map filter odd sum
Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by Twisol on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:04AM (#21278818)
Huh. I would've expected it to be `odd filter`, not `filter odd`.
Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by zwaps on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:30AM (#21279438)
Interestingly enough, the now standard data manipulation package in R, dplyr, uses pipelines.
Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by karmakaze on Sunday October 20, 2019 @12:32PM (#21305162)
Good to learn me some F#, looks like Elixir.
Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by jodrellblank on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:21PM (#21275079)
If verbs from the object flowing you want, "That style to me is preferable" you should say. (Style is the object, preferring it is the verb)

English reads left to right overall, but writing instructions in English does not flow smoothly either way. e.g. "shuffle a deck of playing cards then deal four" reads more naturally than either "a deck of playing cards shuffle then four cards deal" or "deal four cards after shuffling a deck of playing cards".

shuffle(cards).deal(4) is a mix of both approaches.

Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by rtkwe on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:35PM (#21275250)
Yes yes, english doesn't follow this noun-verb order but that's not what I'm actually talking about.

Usually the languages either encourage cards.shuffle().deal(4) or deal(shuffle(cards),4).

In the 'noun-verb'/OOP version the sequence of modifications follows the english reading order where basically I only have to keep information about the last result in my head. The functional verb-noun version I have to pop in and out of layers: 'ok we're dealing what?, something shuffled, what are we shuffling?, the cards object/variable, ok we're dealing shuffled cards how many are we dealing? 4.'

In general the noun-verb follows the sequence of operations applied by the computer so it's easier to read.

Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by jodrellblank on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:48PM (#21275444)
That's where I was going as well, LISP style and APL style claims "reads left to right" but having to build up a stack of buffered work which you can only unwind once you get to the end, is annoying and unhelpful and limiting.

But simply turning it around to cards.shuffle().deal(4) isn't a good answer, it's still the case that you can only put a small number of things together in a chain because it stops making sense. If the next move was to start the game, "cards.shuffle().deal(4).startgame('some-card-game')" does not make sense because starting the game is not something the cards do, but "start(deal(shuffle(cards), 4), 'some-card-game')" can make sense because start is a function which takes a board state and a game to start. It describes the world state, not the cards and their abilities.

That is, neither style is right, but a mixed style where both approaches are available and you can mix and match to be more expressive, works much better, IMO. Chunking a small number of things with prefix into one operation, or with postfix into one operation, but combining those chunks flexibly at a larger scale.

Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by cb504 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @05:06PM (#21275703)
the main point was about auto-completion and usability and discoverability. fluent api for the win.
Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by qtplatypus on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @10:23PM (#21278373)
English is worse as it is SVO. So a more English like language would be all infix operators. I thunk part of ambiguity is that English can be used in both modes.

“Say that” “He said”

Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by rtkwe on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @11:58PM (#21278789)
I was really just talking about the left to right order of modification not the actual order of English sentences. Apparently I was very unclear because that's all the responses I'm getting.
Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by iameli on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:43AM (#21279226)
Yeah, Lisp-y parenthesis syntax isn't the best for that, but Ruby and CoffeeScript express it reasonably well: `sum mapToInt filter list`
Re:Verb-Noun vs. Noun-Verb by rtkwe on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:06PM (#21274154)
Which is basically just a sequence of verb-nouns.