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Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by quantummkv on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @09:54AM (#21270320)
> As Perens puts it, "we have to draw a line between 'open source' and the right to make money with open source. The open source definition allows, but does not support, your right to make money. We're not going to change the rules because you can make money better that way."

This right here. When you open source something, you are basically volunteering to write code. By the very definition, volunteering to do something does not entitle you to anything. Imagine how weird it would sound if people started asking money to volunteer in soup kitchens.

If you think you are entitled to something for your work, don't volunteer. Make it a service and charge. If you think writing some code used by someone entitles you to some money, make it proprietary code and start charging like Microsoft does. No one is going to stop you.

Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by lostcolony on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @10:07AM (#21270450)
Slight nit: when you open source something, you're not even volunteering to write code. There is no obligation on your part to continue supporting it at that point. You're simply giving out something that cost you some time (no materials).

Which may explain why people can feel entitled to getting paid for their efforts; we tend to feel that if we give something to others they owe us something back (this is why we have a bunch of laws against giving and accepting gifts in certain situations, because of the societal pressure to make it an equitable exchange), and it sometimes takes intentional reminding of ourselves that that's not how giving works, and that there is no actual quid pro quo obligation.

Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by bonoboTP on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:59PM (#21273336)
> Slight nit: when you open source something, you're not even volunteering to write code. There is no obligation on your part to continue supporting it at that point. You're simply giving out something that cost you some time (no materials).

Whether you offer paid support or not has no bearing on whether you release your code under an open source license.

Many companies offer support contracts for their open source software. Many paid employees work on open source software, not only volunteers (Google, Facebook, Canonical, Red Hat, SchedMD and so on).

Open source and commercial are not antonyms.

Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by lostcolony on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @05:00PM (#21275616)
You misunderstand what I'm saying.

I'm saying when something is open sourced, -the work is done-. You are not necessarily volunteering to work any more. The act of open sourcing something involves no volunteering; it involves giving something away. Likewise any patches you choose to release.

When I say 'support', I mean "Oh, this person filed a bug; I'll go fix it". I was not saying support with an implication of financial remuneration.

Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by bonoboTP on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:23AM (#21279969)
> I'm saying when something is open sourced, -the work is done-. You are not necessarily volunteering to work any more. The act of open sourcing something involves no volunteering; it involves giving something away. Likewise any patches you choose to release.

Open sourcing something is also not equal to distributing something for free. I'm sorry for nitpicking, but there's a lot of genuine confusion about this out there.

You can release something with an open source license without distributing it yourself.

The free software movement regards it as a moral imperative to license all software with free / open source licenses, even if you just give the software to your client and never upload it to Github or release it publicly online.

Even if you distribute it, you don't even have to have a bug tracking interface.

Open sourcing is simply attaching a free/open source license to a piece of software. Nothing more nothing less. Not participation in the community, not Github, not issue tracking, not upstream or downstream patch contributions, or volunteering or zero-price distribution or anything else.

Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by lostcolony on Thursday October 17, 2019 @10:51AM (#21282653)
How does "even if you just give the software to your client and never upload it to Github or release it publicly online" in any way conflict with what I said? I said "It's like giving it away" - I never said the size of the audience. I didn't say anything about widespread distribution.

And your point...is identical to the one I was making, that licensing something as open source is not volunteering to do anything from here on out, but instead just giving away the work you've already done.

You're nit picking where there are no nits.

Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by coldtea on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:14PM (#21272811)
>Imagine how weird it would sound if people started asking money to volunteer in soup kitchens.

That's basically what NGOs are...

Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by pstuart on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @12:15PM (#21272045)
What about dual licensing? Pure GPL or commercial license?

Seems like fair trade

Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by bonoboTP on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:00PM (#21273367)
"Commercial" is not the antonym of free software/open source. "Proprietary" is.

You can (and many companies do) make money with (i.e. commercialize) open source software.

Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by quantummkv on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:09PM (#21272746)
It is a fair trade. Qt works this way and is very successful in both the commercial and open source worlds.
Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by mistrial9 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:30PM (#21272971)
no, there is another step (at least).. That is, to understand the benefits of something specialized, to .. say economy overall; society overall; research and innovation; education; governance.. you must understand benefits to others past yourself and your team. This is a higher mental function, do not assume everyone understands this, or that you understand this, at all times. Volunteering your own time is yes, a question, but there are systems effects to something as specialized as modern code.
Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by quantummkv on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:37PM (#21273036)
I am really sorry but I genuinely am unable to understand what you said. Can you repeat that in english please?
Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by mistrial9 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:53PM (#21273245)
> When you open source something, you are basically volunteering to write code

thank you for the opportunity to clarify...

YOU - an individual coder; OpenSource - a publication with license for others; Write Code - specialized skills with high literacy; Volunteering - social arrangement with time and resources.

You - Write Code - OpenSource => volunteering

when code is made OpenSource, the origins of the code over time are due to more than one person

when code is made OpenSource, benefits are primarily to systems, less so to the individual

to understand the decision to make OpenSource code, the systems that benefit extend to Five Areas (for example, to quote https://paulfuhlir.com/ ) .. listed above

does that make it clearer ?

Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by phonon on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:15AM (#21279106)
Open Source = Tikkun Olam
Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by kiba on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @12:33PM (#21272282)
Open source does not have to be a charity.
Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by quantummkv on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:07PM (#21272716)
It kinda does. Pretending otherwise is like asking people to pay 10$ before eating at a community kitchen. Or forcing people to pay to enter a public park.
Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by bonoboTP on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:06PM (#21273440)
Open source or free software was at no point defined as charity/zero-price/volunteer/hobbyist software. It is simply a question of the license. You can be a business, you can make money, you can employ professional programmers and create open source / free software.
Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by ninju on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @11:28PM (#21278677)
> you can employ professional programmers and create open source / free software

And how would you pay the 'employed' programmers that created the software if not by charging for the software

Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by bonoboTP on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:28AM (#21279989)
Ask Google, Facebook, RedHat, Canonical, SchedMD (who produce Slurm).

Tons of open source software is being created by professional employees of companies today. It's not some hypothetical, this is today's reality.

And it's mostly about profiting from related services, paid support, training, consulting etc.

I realize it cannot work the same way for some minor app by a tiny company and it does create wrong incentives sometimes (you need to make things just complicated enough so they need to hire you for support and training, but not so complicated that it's unusable).

(By the way, nothing forbids you from charging for the software, source or binaries, even if you license it under a free software / open source license. "Free" is a catastrophic naming choice, as it doesn't refer to zero price. It is true, though, that anyone who buys it once can then redistribute the software for zero price, so you'd only get money from people who buy directly from you, instead of obtaining a copy at zero cost from somewhere else.)

Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by kiba on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:12AM (#21279921)
By charging for binary downloads?
Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by lacker on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:50PM (#21273205)
More open source code is written by for-profit businesses than by charities. It's just businesses that have an adjacent profitable service, like Google releasing Kubernetes in order to drive Google Cloud adoption.
Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by SuperFerret on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:36PM (#21273033)
You can ask to be paid to make the soup and then let others take it for free. Or to make it more apt. I can ask for money to build an unlimited soup dispenser and then let others take soup from it for free.
Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by quantummkv on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:44PM (#21273117)
> You can ask to be paid to make the soup and then let others take it for free.

But you cannot cry and moan if you give away the soup for free to someone and then find that they are reselling that to someone else for money. Or to make it more apt, I can ask a Softbank for money to build an unlimited soup dispenser and then let others take soup from it for free. But I cannot stop the people that took the free soup I offered to give away/sell it to others

Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by SolaceQuantum on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:01PM (#21273370)
"But you cannot cry and moan if you give away the soup for free to someone and then find that they are reselling that to someone else for money."

Actually I think charities get really pissed off when you try do this? Isn't this why the individual packets of stuff often say 'not for resale' or whatever?

Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by wombatpm on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:54PM (#21274766)
If you buy food products in bulk, the main bulk container contains legally required disclosures, disclaimers, ingredients etc. Individual packets within said bulk container lack such notices.

Compare a box a granola bars from Costco vs the same bar from a grocery store.

Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by tastythrowaway on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:12PM (#21273495)
You mean like licensing terms?
Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by tastythrowaway on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:11PM (#21273483)
This isn't a fair comparison. Community kitchens and public parks aren't undergirding every modern functional information-enabled economy. I'm not speculating who should be charged or how much/in what way, but it needs to be supported somehow if we want to continue to reap its benefits. There is no free lunch.
Re:In 2019, multiple open source companies changed course by vinclou on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @08:54PM (#21277901)
The worst possible comparison as both parks and kitchens are usually paid by the government, government takes its money from the taxation system. Meaning if you pay taxes you contribute to these facilities, thus it is fair for you to use governmental facilities and services, you might even call it a right to use those.