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Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by vezycash on Monday October 14, 2019 @06:14AM (#21246624)
"But I've already invested and sacrificed so much money, time & effort on this deal, relationship, person, place..."

This thought causes victim of scams to mortgage their houses and send the money to scammers - even in the face of overwhelming evidence. Causes victim of abusive relationships to remain even when their lives are in danger. It's also what will keep western companies in China - even as China slowly strangles them to death.

Sunk Cost Fallacy

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by Peckingjay on Monday October 14, 2019 @07:26AM (#21247099)
All your data in China collected at will to be shared with all entities of the Chinese government and potentially any private company it owns feels more like a really fast and aggressive ramp-up than a slow strangulation to me.
Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by milofeynman on Monday October 14, 2019 @08:55AM (#21247698)
China can also assume company boards will be making short term gains decisions, while China is making long term moves.
Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by dleslie on Monday October 14, 2019 @10:40AM (#21248774)
Not just private entities; democratic states tend not to produce meaningful policy that reaches beyond their electoral terms.
Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by mistermann on Monday October 14, 2019 @11:43AM (#21249509)
I would be very surprised if Chinese leadership isn't extremely cognizant of the necessarily short term thinking forced upon corporations (quarterly/annual earnings progression) and politicians (re-election) in Western democracies, and putting a massive amount of strategic thinking into how to best exploit this without attracting too much attention. Neither the corporations or politicians are going to be particularly motivated to draw attention to it, and public concerns on individual issues like this are typically ineffectual, I think they will be able to get an absolute massive amount of mileage out of this weakness.

Honestly, I think the West's best defense is young otherwise powerless people on the internet making memes mocking the irresponsible behavior of people in power.

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by Loughla on Monday October 14, 2019 @12:10PM (#21249799)
>Honestly, I think the West's best defense is young otherwise powerless people on the internet making memes mocking the irresponsible behavior of people in power.

I honestly am going to need you to explain why this is your thought.

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by mistermann on Monday October 14, 2019 @12:53PM (#21250272)
I see no other defense that would plausibly be undertaken in the current culture of the West. There are many options of course, I just don't see any that maintain current levels of corporate profitability and re-election likelihood. What little commentary on the matter I see from those who hold power seems motivated by the chance for political gain, or corporate perception management.
Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by analyst74 on Monday October 14, 2019 @12:31PM (#21250045)
I always hear this line of thought, maybe it's even true, but why is that?

Chinese top leaders generally are only in power for ten years. I don't see why they have more motivations than leaders in democratic states to think about the long term.

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by rjf72 on Monday October 14, 2019 @03:40PM (#21251958)
I expect two major components are demographics and a lack of partisanship. What I mean by demographics is that the Chinese political system is a very tall hierarchy. Representatives from each level vote for the one above it going all the way down to villagers voting for their village representative, and all the way up to the elected elite at the top of the hierarchy electing their representative - the president of China. And so because of this you end up with a generally more informed demographic at each level going up. This system means those at the top are not directly accountable to those at the bottom, but that lack of accountability also frees them up to pursue big picture goals.

Longterm goals and progress are quite separate from the everyday life of most people. China recently completed the largest radio telescope in the world. Next year they begin work on what will be the largest particle collider in the world. And then there are their rapid advances in space. In appealing to the lowest common denominator of demographics, these achievements are easy to tear apart. "Spending billions to grow potatoes on the moon while people are starving back here on Earth!? WTF!?" That's an illogical but common argument. It implies you should not achieve greater things until you solve the fundamental ails of society. Problem being it's likely impossible to solve those ails in complete -- certainly without any technological advancement. The argument is tantamount to suggesting a freeze on progress for the sake of progress.

And the partisanship issue goes practically without saying. Our founding fathers wrote extensively on the dangers of parties, but were unable to solve the issue. China solved the issue, but at great cost - there is only one party. But for now at least they seem to be avoiding the issues we're facing. As for how this applies to longterm progress, in 1972 Nixon remarked “This may be the last time in this century that men will walk on the Moon.” [1] A significant part of the reason he decided to strip NASA down was because of a feud he had with JFK. He lost to Kennedy in an extremely close and contentious election in 1960. Apparently even Kennedy's assassination was insufficient to put that feud to rest. One president wanting to destroy things associated with another's legacy, because of a political feud? As always, what's new is old. Hard to achieve much when in a few years the next guy's going to try to destroy everything associated with you because of a feud driven by our partisan nonsense. And then the voting masses just get dragged along between the feuds. And as our political leaders become ever more effective at this game, it seems to be causing a greater and greater fragmentation within society which means things like big picture progress are going to be ever less likely.

[1] - http://www.planetary.org/blogs/guest-blogs/jason-callahan/20...

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by ghostbrainalpha on Monday October 14, 2019 @01:13PM (#21250462)
Totally agree. This problem fascinates me, but how do we inspire lawmakers to design policy for the long term without the equally problematic extending of term limits?
Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by maerF0x0 on Monday October 14, 2019 @12:26PM (#21249998)
>reaches beyond their electoral terms.

Source? I would love to add this to my collection of knowledge...

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by pfortuny on Monday October 14, 2019 @07:03AM (#21246925)
I’ve paid the ticket, then I must travel.
Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by im3w1l on Monday October 14, 2019 @07:27AM (#21247101)
I think the reason we adopt this mindset is because we are ambivalent. First you feel you wanna go, then you regret it because you are nervous about the rental car, then you wanna go again, then you regret it because there's a lot of stuff at work you want to deal with, then you wanna go, then you get scared of skin cancer from the strong sun etc etc

Booking and cancelling and booking and cancelling and... It would be terrible to change your mind so often. So you decide to just go with the option you picked first even though it temporarily seems suboptimal.

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by esotericn on Monday October 14, 2019 @07:40AM (#21247190)
It's suboptimal to continually change your mind so rapidly too, not just 'terrible' mentally, because the real world around you imposes significant penalties for doing so.

Switching flights and hotels on a moment's notice is expensive. Arbitrary days off work are difficult for most. For some travel you're looking at visas, rental cars, etc as stated.

There's a lot of inertia in the boring and stable path.

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Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by perlpimp on Monday October 14, 2019 @08:40AM (#21247581)
you are not banned from using VPN otherwise. Did you even read the document ?
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Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by seanmcdirmid on Monday October 14, 2019 @09:18AM (#21247898)
> If it starts invading other nations or threatens them with war unless they do as they are told then I’ll care.

Well you are in luck, China still has that whole South China Sea thing going on these days.

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by vorpalhex on Monday October 14, 2019 @09:57AM (#21248297)
Yeah, historically cracking down on a particular ethnic group and putting them in camps for "re-education" has gone so well and totally never caused any issues...
Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by _jal on Monday October 14, 2019 @10:40AM (#21248771)
> whatever China does in its own borders is it’s own business

No. Even if this were a moral position, China doesn't follow this either.

Human rights should not be geofenced.

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by Thriptic on Monday October 14, 2019 @09:40AM (#21248103)
These aren't even remotely equivalent and you know it. Western governments don't place minders inside Western companies; they don't take stakes in all companies to exert control; they don't have social scores that are contingent upon your speech about the government; they don't ban encrypted communications; they don't have great firewalls; they can't easily detain you arbitrarily; they don't strip control of IP and transfer it to local competitors; there is a much higher degree of rule of law...

Just because the US et al aren't perfect (and they certainly aren't) doesn't mean the behavior in China is equivalent to what is going on in the west.

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by akjsdhfkjhask on Monday October 14, 2019 @10:29AM (#21248652)
Western political culture feels like a softer, distributed version of the social credit score. How large of a distribution of opinions are you allowed to hold while keeping a job in the tech sector? We know from the examples of political firings that the range is not infinite. And people have gotten "cancelled" from private communications being made public on more than one occasion.

Because it's a volunteer, private process and not the government doing it, we still call it "freedom" but it really doesn't feel like an open society anymore. But I do acknowledge that we still have it way better in the West than they do in China (for now).

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by NotSammyHagar on Monday October 14, 2019 @03:32PM (#21251868)
A vast majority of opinions are allowed. Religious, atheist. hate the govt, love the govt. In the 50 dev startup I was working in we had the conservative guy (vp of engr) who was a republican who kept trying to defend trump. We had another guy on the other side who didn't trust the govt and didn't want to go through security at the airport. And all varieties in between. What's not allowed? outright misogyny, outright expressed racism.

Russians and Chinese citizens in my company, along with us citizens, europeans. These aren't exactly outliers. The tech world has been this tolerant over my 30 years of working. It's only gotten more tolerant over time. There's a hell of a lot less acceptance of sexist crap though - hard to argue against that change.

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by rjf72 on Monday October 14, 2019 @12:01PM (#21249709)
What do you think about things such as room 641A [1]? In short it is one tiny part of the NSA - an NSA office inside of an AT&T building that only NSA "minders" have access to (funny how terminology has such powerful connotations isn't it?), and is used for hoovering up all information which is then processed and used as part of our surveillance state.

As for arbitrary detention, how about the National Defense Authorization Act (2012) Section 1021 [2]? The language is a mixture of strong and weak. What I mean is that it says, for instance, one can be detained for providing direct support of a specific terrorist group, but it also includes anybody engaging in a "belligerent act" against the United States as similarly sufficient grounds for arbitrary detention or transferal to the custody or control of any other nations. This remains one of the loopholes for 'we don't torture' - we just transfer to countries that do. When Obama signed this bill into law he openly acknowledged this, as well as the rather extreme constitutional conflicts, and simply claimed his administration would "interpret" the law in a way that would avoid a constitutional conflict. [3] Whether that was true or not is anybody's guess. In any case 'the law's still here, he's all gone' (in my best Springsteen impersonation.)

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization...

[3] - https://www.ajc.com/blog/jamie-dupree/obama-defense-bill-sig...

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by wbl on Monday October 14, 2019 @12:19PM (#21249915)
Beligerant act means act of war.
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Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by kortilla on Monday October 14, 2019 @10:55AM (#21248911)
> AG Barr is actively trying to get rid of encrypted communications

One AG trying != it happened.

> and social scores are just as possible to implement in the US as in China

Not under the current laws, no.

> we already know that a form of such scoring has already been applied to those thought to perhaps be "terrorists".

No, there is no “terrorist” score that comes up based on posting tweets about how much you hate the US government when you go to apply for a job. In fact, it would probably be worse for your job prospects in the tech industry if you had public posts supporting the current admin.

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Monday October 14, 2019 @12:36PM (#21250096)
I just wanted to point out that it is not just Barr. Various LEOs pine for a way to get a legal way to just 'press a button to decrypt'. Comey advocated for it. So did Holder. So yeah, it did not happen yet, but given the steady push, eventually, it will. It is only a matter of time.

As to the terrorist score, you are right. That would be too simple to target.

Instead, we have amalgam of various private entities collecting information and selling it to highest bidder. At best, the score is distributed.

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by MaxBarraclough on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:06PM (#21252256)
> there is no “terrorist” score that comes up based on posting tweets about how much you hate the US government when you go to apply for a job

Indeed. The closest you get is the No Fly List.

Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by monocasa on Monday October 14, 2019 @12:07PM (#21249778)
> Not under the current laws, no.

Which laws forbid the construction of a US social credit score?

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Re:China's New Cybersecurity Program: No Place to Hide by tempguy9999 on Monday October 14, 2019 @11:22AM (#21249246)
> Would you prefer a government that is open and overt about their domestic surveillance or one that tries to keep the public in the dark about what is happening

Translation: would I prefer a government that is openly hostile to human rights, or one that has some laws.

In answer, I'd prefer my system not yours.

> which is why they're kept misinformed + uninformed

And out comes the usual claim that westerners are ignorant.