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Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by unqueued on Sunday October 13, 2019 @01:54PM (#21241725)
> I might imply that your highschool teacher friend is instead falling out of computer literacy, and that highshool students are moving away from her form of a computer-based workflow.

I suppose, in the same way that people using crayons are moving away from the printed word.

> Perhaps instead of email, you teacher friend could find out how her students send things to each other and meet them half way? Make up a google drive or dropbox or whatever microsoft or apple are doing instead of insisting on whatever's most comfortable for you.

Isn't the whole point of school to learn new skills? If students have illegible handwriting and poor grammar, should the teacher really be meeting the students half way?

I actually told her that she should continue doing what she was doing, because it was a real boon to her students. They might not ever learn this stuff.

Her students objectively less able to share information with each other. I have certainly seen kids who have to go as far as taking screenshots of what an app contains and send a screenshot to someone, than actually be able to export text.

I could understand if what the students were doing was in some way comparable in flexibility, but it isn't. They basically only know how to click on the share button in an app, and text links for someone else to install the app. Or send them screenshots of them using an app scrolled to the relevant info.

But the biggest benefit is that having assignments in discrete organized bundles makes the most sense for everyone.

Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by SiVal on Sunday October 13, 2019 @06:02PM (#21243442)
The problem I see is that tech is doing the market-savvy thing of moving from features to solutions. We had enabling technologies that people were expected to learn to use in combination, like tools in a toolbox. Files were generic containers that could hold different things and clustered into projects in "folders" and manipulated by specialty tools.

But the new way is exemplified by iOS. You buy pre-packaged "solutions" that keep your data...somewhere...safe, presumably, and away from you so you don't screw it up. If it's something you should be doing, there will be "an app for that" that you can buy, so don't worry your pretty head. If we gave you "tools", you'd just hurt yourself. Why not stop worrying and buy something nice. We have songs, we have shows...you can send a funny animoji to all of your friends. Good times. You look awesome. You're welcome.

And for market success, they seem to be right, although they're creating a situation where, if you don't have to learn to use a toolbox of specialized tools in customized combinations, you'll never learn how and really WILL need to rely entirely on pre-built "complete solutions".

Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by aidenn0 on Sunday October 13, 2019 @07:18PM (#21243949)
> Her students objectively less able to share information with each other. I have certainly seen kids who have to go as far as taking screenshots of what an app contains and send a screenshot to someone, than actually be able to export text.

True story: while performing support for development tools, I asked a developer for a source file. They opened it in their IDE, took a screenshot, pasted the screenshot into a word document, hit page-down in the IDE, took a screenshot...

We got a several dozen page word document filled with screenshots of the text file.

Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by soulofmischief on Sunday October 13, 2019 @07:56PM (#21244178)
Honestly, that's a fireable offense. Who knows what untold damage that kind of ignorant mentality has caused to the company codebase.
Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by pm90 on Sunday October 13, 2019 @03:14PM (#21242266)
I think its important to stress on this part:

> and meet them half way?

In other words, OP is not suggesting that you force students to use another method, but work with them to understand what makes sense to them. In your specific anecdote, if the teacher showed the students how to share hyperlinks, or how to get text dumps and share them instead of screenshots, maybe they would respect her for that.

Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by WalterBright on Sunday October 13, 2019 @02:59PM (#21242173)
> I have certainly seen kids who have to go as far as taking screenshots of what an app contains and send a screenshot to someone, than actually be able to export text.

I used to export the text of my travel itineraries, and go through several steps to get it on my phone. Now I just take a photo of the text on my screen. It's just one step :-)

Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by unqueued on Sunday October 13, 2019 @03:24PM (#21242337)
Yeah but what if you are grading papers, do you want to mark up bitmaps? People need to learn that there is more than one way to do something.
Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by jacobolus on Sunday October 13, 2019 @05:06PM (#21243032)
> if you are grading papers do you want to mark up bitmaps?

Why not? Get a tablet with a stylus and draw your commentary directly on the image.

That is the way teachers have always marked up student work, just now without a paper copy or a physical red pen.

Trying to mark up documents using MS Word or Google Docs or whatever is a horrible experience in comparison.

Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by wlesieutre on Sunday October 13, 2019 @05:15PM (#21243098)
iPad OS’s new “full page screenshot” feature for webpages kicks out a long PDF (no page breaks, it’s one long scrollable page like the actual webpage was) and sends it straight to the markup view. You can draw on it just like marking up an image, but the text is still selectable and searchable.

It’s a nice example of software recognizing how people want to work and building to support that.

And one more for the people with Pencils - you can drag from the bottom corner upward to take a screenshot in any app with the same markup tools. Works on either side, so the lefties aren’t left out here.

Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by unqueued on Sunday October 13, 2019 @10:15PM (#21244762)
Years ago, I tried using ghostcript to set the attributes of a webpage PDF so that it is like 8k pixels tall and had no linebreaks, but Preview.app would just render it as a single page really zoomed out, and I would have to zoom all the way in. Does it function better now?
Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by wlesieutre on Monday October 14, 2019 @12:32AM (#21245283)
When I open in a Preview window it behaves well and fits to the width.

Switching Preview to full screen trips it up still. For some reason that view wants to fit the whole document, and it zooms very far out to do it.

And on the iPad side there appears to be a limit on how long a document the "Full Page" screenshot will make. An HN thread with 110 comments came through entirely, but another one with 160 comments was truncated. Didn't dig any deeper than that, but I wonder what's going on there.

Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by unqueued on Sunday October 13, 2019 @10:12PM (#21244749)
I don't see why you could not do exactly the same thing with MS Word, or even a properly exported PDF.

And, the added benefit is that it is searchable and can be re-rendered in different formats.

But even if sending obtuse oversized bitmaps to be handled on a tablet did happen to be the best solution, that is really not the point. Her class is not about optimizing itself. Her class is about educating students. Not just about science, but about what goes into collecting data, collaborating, and submitting it in an accessible format.

I think that a high school graduate should be able to understand how to take some arbitrary files, bundle them together in a zip file, and email them to someone. I really don't think this is too much to ask of some aspiring pre-STEM students. And if she bent over backwards to use snapchat and accept assignments in the form of a bunch of screenshots, I think she would be doing them a disservice.

Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by ghaff on Sunday October 13, 2019 @09:03PM (#21244456)
Making hand annotation with a digital pencil more seamlessly integrated with typed and otherwise native digital docs actually seems like a great direction to be moving in. Things are moving there to a degree but it’s still hard to shift back and forth between modes.
Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by michaelmrose on Sunday October 13, 2019 @05:52PM (#21243371)
This would be fantastically more work than typing. Text is an effective and effecient medium.

If the student can't figure out a slightly different way to accomplish a goal then they are incompetent with computers and only proficient insofar as memorizing one workflow.

Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by jacobolus on Sunday October 13, 2019 @06:02PM (#21243444)
What? Have you ever graded written papers? Have you ever seen a paper graded by a good teacher?

We’re not talking about pages of written commentary here. The most “effective and efficient” approach involves circling words or phrases, underlining sentences, writing arrows from one part to another, scribbling some wavy lines in the margin, writing a few words here or there, ...

There is a very limited amount of time available to work through each student’s work. The point is not to entirely rewrite the paper for the student, or explain every problem with the paper in detail. The point is to highlight what the student did well, highlight the parts that make no sense, and give the student a few pieces of quick feedback so they can revise their paper or do a better job next time.

A colored pen on a black-on-white printed copy is much more “effective and efficient” (and “fantastically less work”) than electronic tools prominently involving a keyboard.

Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by TeMPOraL on Sunday October 13, 2019 @07:37PM (#21244066)
"Effective and efficient"? Or just lazy but fast?
Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by michaelmrose on Monday October 14, 2019 @02:42PM (#21251401)
Achieving the goal with less effort so that you can spend more effort on other aspects of the job or on other endeavors is effecient.

Wanting each of your teachers to learn how to use a constantly changing array of 20 different social image sharing services in order to receive work in a format that is more work to process is lazy.

Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by detaro on Sunday October 13, 2019 @09:04PM (#21244465)
the former. Even some professional editors prefer pen/stylus for some review stages.
Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by michaelmrose on Monday October 14, 2019 @02:44PM (#21251415)
You can do this with a pdf with annotations and a touch screen with a pen
Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by pnutjam on Sunday October 13, 2019 @05:35PM (#21243235)
Email is actually pretty crappy for files. She should setup an https drop and get a way better experience.
Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by Const-me on Sunday October 13, 2019 @08:44PM (#21244371)
I use pcloud.com for a similar problem.

They have custom HTTP JSON RPC protocol, it uses POST and GET verbs. Their web site calls that one. They also have more performant TCP binary endpoints for use by native clients, with the same payload packed into custom binary format.

For users, it's a web app with download and upload links.

Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by anderspitman on Sunday October 13, 2019 @07:07PM (#21243881)
How would that look for assignment submissions? Something like WebDAV?
Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by detaro on Sunday October 13, 2019 @07:08PM (#21243889)
Just a page with a form you can upload files through. You can setup something like that e.g. with Owncloud/Nextcloud. And dedicated education tools also often have it.

For normal document-sized files, email is fine though too IMHO, for university stuff I never really cared which way was used.

Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by anderspitman on Monday October 14, 2019 @12:05AM (#21245200)
NextCloud is quite a dependency for a simple file upload.
Re:Computer Files Are Going Extinct by detaro on Monday October 14, 2019 @04:48PM (#21252716)
Sure, if you just install it for that. But it's a reasonably common service (e.g. around here, many universities have it for their employees and students) with that feature.