News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by antpls on Saturday October 12, 2019 @06:47AM (#21232062)
For the non-initiated among us, what does it mean to "use a team of pacemakers"?

Why are those pacemakers that important?

Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by fdanconia21 on Saturday October 12, 2019 @07:01AM (#21232115)
It's a group of runners there to keep up the running pace, to block wind and generally add morale.

Over the duration of the attempt, runners will hop in and hop out of the run to keep the running pace alongside Kipchoge as well as block wind (a non-trivial factor) over 26.2 miles. Also, it is mentally boosting to have teammates and even competitors of his run along side him as he pushes his body and mind farther than he has ever had before.

Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by Someone on Saturday October 12, 2019 @07:06AM (#21232128)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drafting_(aerodynamics)#Runnin...:

”Drafting behind another runner can conserve energy, although the effect is less than in cycling due to the fact that speeds are lower.”

There also is a psychological effect. It is easier to keep a constant pace if there’s somebody in front of you that does it, too.

Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by phkahler on Saturday October 12, 2019 @07:28AM (#21232227)
So use an AR headset to put a virtual person in front of you keeping a constant pace?
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by ddeck on Saturday October 12, 2019 @08:08AM (#21232396)
No need for AR in this case. There was a laser grid projected onto the road in front of the runners by a pacing car.

https://image.businessinsider.com/5da1887a4af90974904877c2

https://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2...

But that can't provide the drafting and morale benefit of running behind your teammates

Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by ralfd on Saturday October 12, 2019 @08:36AM (#21232552)
Wait ... why a laser projection? You could just use the car for pacing.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by Tharkun on Saturday October 12, 2019 @06:27PM (#21236809)
IIRC it was done that way as a way to follow the optimal path, instead of eyeballing it and taking corners too wide and adding more distance. Might not seem like much, but he had to shave off less than a minute of his previous attempt, so every little helps.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by read_if_gay_ on Saturday October 12, 2019 @08:51AM (#21232649)
Maybe for keeping a safe distance without having to eyeball it, or for avoiding the fumes.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by jdietrich on Saturday October 12, 2019 @11:28AM (#21233881)
Road cyclists frequently draft behind a car or motorcycle; motor-paced racing used to be a very popular discipline and motorcycles are still used for pacing the Keirin event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor-paced_racing

Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by maxlamb on Saturday October 12, 2019 @10:40PM (#21237957)
The pace car was a Tesla so no fumes :)
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by Mountain_Skies on Saturday October 12, 2019 @09:13AM (#21232815)
Might want to use an electric car to avoid the fumes. I do wonder if the car, even a larger distance ahead, does more for drafting than a human in front of the runner.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by canucker2016 on Saturday October 12, 2019 @01:47PM (#21234879)
They used an Audi e-Tron car for pacing the Ineos 1:59.

For the previous attempt at the Breaking 2 event at Monza racetrack, they used a Tesla as a pace car.

Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by cehrlich on Saturday October 12, 2019 @09:45AM (#21233059)
I don't have the source on hand, but there was an interview with the person who designed the unusual reverse-V shaped pacer formation, where he said that if it was up to him there wouldn't be a car in front of the runners. The goal is to have as much air as possible hit the front pacers.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by jeff18 on Saturday October 12, 2019 @10:49AM (#21233565)
According to the article, it was an electric car.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by rtkwe on Saturday October 12, 2019 @07:15PM (#21237019)
Could be a requirement to stay a certain distance back to keep the car from performing too much of the drafting maybe?
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by toyg on Saturday October 12, 2019 @07:34AM (#21232244)
Marathon runners would run naked if they could. Certainly don’t want or need some heavy gadget on their head.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by mantap on Saturday October 12, 2019 @07:54AM (#21232324)
A device like google glass wouldn't be much heavier than their usual glasses.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by gamblor956 on Saturday October 12, 2019 @01:05PM (#21234584)
There are specific limits on the size and functionality of sunglasses at sanctioned track and field events.

Some events don't even allow the use of Garmin watches (by elite runners) because they can be used for pacing.

Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by andygates on Monday October 14, 2019 @06:37AM (#21246729)
Very much a non-elite runner here, but yeah, "run vs my previous best pace" is a standard mode and seeing "you are 12 seconds ahead and will finish with a time of xx:yy" is very, very motivating.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by RandomBacon on Saturday October 12, 2019 @11:10AM (#21233736)
Every once counts. Also, it would be a pain to keep on while running.

Are there any ultramarathon runners that wear glasses while they run?

Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by brantonb on Saturday October 12, 2019 @11:24AM (#21233843)
It’s very common to wear sunglasses in an ultramarathon. Runners usually also wear a vest to carry their water, food, safety gear, headlamp, etc.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by sandermvanvliet on Saturday October 12, 2019 @12:22PM (#21234286)
Different sport altogether, it’s more the endurance so the pace is generally lower. Also you usually won’t have much support along the way so carrying water & food is pretty essential.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by wccrawford on Saturday October 12, 2019 @08:15AM (#21232443)
That would be amazing for many sports, I think. Gamers are used to ghosts in races showing them what others have done. Doing this for real-life sports could really change how people train.

Personally, I find this a very inspirational idea.

Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by jniedrauer on Saturday October 12, 2019 @11:26PM (#21238160)
> Doing this for real-life sports could really change how people train.

Strava live segments kind of do this already and it's more of a curse during training. The hardest part of training for running, aside from the consistent long hours, is taking it easy most of the time. Strava segments cause you to compete with yourself and others and go too hard. This quickly leads to burnout and injury. Slow, consistent runs are what you need during training, and a GPS watch can already give you that.

Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by wccrawford on Sunday October 13, 2019 @06:54AM (#21239713)
I won't argue that nobody will use it incorrectly. In fact, I'm positive that it'll happen just like you say at first.

And then the internet will be flooded with bloggers talking about how everyone is doing it wrong since they're now self-proclaimed experts, repeating the same things they've heard someone else say.

And eventually, most people will get on the right track with it. It'll be a "GPS watch" in their head that's far more effective.

And I'm sure people will take it beyond that in ways that neither of us are prepared to imagine yet.

Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by tjr225 on Saturday October 12, 2019 @09:24AM (#21232908)
What possible benefit would AR provide in this situation?
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by andygates on Monday October 14, 2019 @06:45AM (#21246777)
AR would allow each athlete their own personal pacing grid, or ghost racer, or ideal line. You can run that on a watch or bike computer (or heads-up display), but AR would be that much more intuitive.

It doesn't apply to this one-person demonstration event, but it would sell like crazy to the gear nuts.

Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by michaelt on Saturday October 12, 2019 @10:42AM (#21233505)
phkahler thinks if the record attempt is invalid because of the team of pace runners, why not use a simulated pace runner to gain the benefit without breaking the rule?

Of course, if the speed benefit of pacing is down to psychology and camaraderie rather than purely information, a simulated pacer might not offer the same benefit.

Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by kingosticks on Saturday October 12, 2019 @11:51AM (#21234062)
There were 3 reasons why the record is invalid: swapping pacers, drinks handed directly to him by support team (on bicycles), not an 'open event'.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by francisofascii on Saturday October 12, 2019 @08:48AM (#21232622)
When Roger Bannister broke the 4 minute mile, he also had pacers.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by brantonb on Saturday October 12, 2019 @11:30AM (#21233894)
The rule for pacers is that they must start the race at the same time and be able to keep up with the runner being paced, though they don’t have to finish it. Swapping fresh legs in mid-race isn’t allowed.

In a college indoor track 5K, one of my teammates was being lapped by another teammate competing for a podium spot. The guy being lapped started sprinting to help the guy near the front of the race finish strong. That was ruled illegal pacing and they were both disqualified. It was a similar sort of situation — in order to legally pace you must be able to keep up with the runner your pacing.

Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by ultrarunner on Saturday October 12, 2019 @06:20PM (#21236780)
It varies by event. Personal pacers in the marathon are uncommon to begin with. In ultramarathons they are specifically not allowed until late in the race. That a track event would rule that way had become an unfortunate expectation.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by brantonb on Sunday October 13, 2019 @03:04AM (#21238875)
Pacers in ultras largely serve a different purpose. They’re there for safety, especially once it gets dark. In events 50 miles and shorter, pacers usually aren’t allowed. Sure, the elite runners could get some actual pacing at the end but that’s a very small portion of pacing in ultras.
Re:Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier by Someone on Saturday October 12, 2019 @11:23AM (#21233835)
Those were different; they all started at the same time as him.

Having pacemakers in marathons that way is deemed acceptable. The organization of a marathon will even specifically hire runners to, say, run the first half in one hour ten minutes, after which they are free to step out of the race.

Here, each pacemaker, including the ones that accompanied him to the finish line, ran for only about 9 km (my guess, given 35 pacemakers used and using groups of 7). So, the last group only started running when Kipchoge has run for over one and a half hours.