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Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by awinter-py on Thursday October 10, 2019 @01:22PM (#21217040)
BYO software is my #3 consumer electronics question (after form factor & 'does it work at all')

and drivers are an important frontier of this. SO TIRED of downloading blobs to have wifi on linux. AFAIK there isn't even a usb wifi dongle that has an open source wifi driver, much less a commercial wifi chipset.

even companies that are in theory dedicated to quality are teetering on the edge of using software to enable planned obsolescence -- and also releasing unpleasant product changes in line with security updates.

coreboot particularly interesting because of the TOTP work people have been doing on the TPM for tamper detection.

Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by floatboth on Thursday October 10, 2019 @01:27PM (#21217093)
Most Wi-Fi blobs are not blob drivers, they're firmware that runs on the Wi-Fi card.

For Intel Wi-Fi, FreeBSD includes the firmware out-of-the-box, many Linux distros do the same I'm sure.

Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by isantop on Thursday October 10, 2019 @01:30PM (#21217129)
Yeah, the actual Intel WiFi driver is afiak open source. It's the firmware that's not.
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by awinter-py on Thursday October 10, 2019 @01:32PM (#21217146)
wait what's the difference? driver runs in kernel, firmware runs in card?
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by akeck on Thursday October 10, 2019 @01:44PM (#21217286)
I think it is, or includes, the baseband firmware for the actual wifi radio. I believe, but I'm not 100% sure, that the FCC has specific restrictions on how baseband radio firmware gets distributed.
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by madez on Thursday October 10, 2019 @10:53PM (#21221130)
You, and everyone else for that matter, can go and buy a software defined radio (SDR) and play with a radio to your hearts liking. If there is a restriction on redistribution of open down to the radio firmware WiFi devices, then it's dumb. If there is none, please don't spread incorrect speculation that there is.
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by ac29 on Friday October 11, 2019 @01:13AM (#21221721)
> You, and everyone else for that matter, can go and buy a software defined radio (SDR) and play with a radio to your hearts liking.

You almost certainly cant transmit legally, though (unless you have a amateur radio license, which lets you do all sorts of stuff with useful amounts of power).

Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by tpearson-raptor on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:14AM (#21221969)
That depends heavily on where you're transmitting (i.e what frequency and bandwidth you use) along with the power you're transmitting at.

First, as a ham radio operator, no, you can't just go and start blasting away from an SDR even in the ham bands. You have to follow strict rules, including a non-commercial content rule and you must not use encryption. The ham bands are for people to experiment with new radio technologies and more importantly communicate with one another using those technologies on a hobbyist level -- encryption and commercial use does not help those goals.

That being said, there are chunks of radio spectrum that are effectively "public domain" where you can transmit within certain ERP (effective radiated power) limits without the ham band restrictions on content, protocol, etc. Traditional WiFi lives in one -- the block set aside for microwave cooking devices, and therefore with a near-unusable noise floor for anything but short range communication like household WiFi.

Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by akeck on Friday October 11, 2019 @04:08PM (#21227958)
"manufacturers are encouraged to design their systems to permit such software upgrades while ensuring security of the portion that controls compliance with the FCC technical requirements"
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by Avery3R on Thursday October 10, 2019 @01:38PM (#21217222)
Yeah
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by awinter-py on Thursday October 10, 2019 @01:46PM (#21217311)
are there tools for parsing the firmware bin? are they a threat vector?

is it like a settings file?

Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by Skunkleton on Thursday October 10, 2019 @05:18PM (#21219285)
Every modern computer has many independent processors, and they all need to execute software from somewhere. Many of these independent processors load their software from some sort of onboard memory, others rely on the main processor to load their software. The second case is what these blobs are for the most part.
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by allset_ on Thursday October 10, 2019 @05:40PM (#21219459)
>are there tools for parsing the firmware bin?

Binwalk, IDA pro, etc. All the normal reverse engineering tools.

>are they a threat vector?

Absolutely.

>is it like a settings file?

No, it's code executing on the WiFi card.

Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by yellowapple on Thursday October 10, 2019 @02:32PM (#21217700)
> are there tools for parsing the firmware bin?

Besides a hex editor, probably not.

> are they a threat vector?

As much as any other opaque software (i.e. not FOSS or otherwise transparent around source code auditing by arbitrary third parties). That is, in short: yes.

> is it like a settings file?

No, it's more like the operating system for the wireless card itself, running on the card's own microprocessor.

Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by m463 on Thursday October 10, 2019 @04:28PM (#21218837)
I bought a purism laptop years ago, and it had zero blobs. It also had really really standard hardware: no special screws to open the case, standard memory, m.2 and hard drive, a standard power supply with a barrel jack, etc.

I believe system76 was less expensive but had blobs. Unsure about the hardware details.

Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by tpearson-raptor on Thursday October 10, 2019 @07:10PM (#21220139)
Oh? Zero blobs, so no ME or PSP? No FSP or AGESA? No EC firmware or integrated GPU firmware?

Sorry, I call BS on that unless it was a long time ago, as in Core 2 Duo era.

Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by m463 on Thursday October 10, 2019 @07:27PM (#21220244)
I have a purism 13 first version. I didn't have to unblock non-free repos when installing linux at first. (I now run arch)

As to booting, it originally shipped with a bios, but later offered coreboot which I believe disabled the ME.

https://puri.sm/posts/purism-librem-laptops-completely-disab...

https://puri.sm/learn/blobs/

https://puri.sm/coreboot/

Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by tpearson-raptor on Thursday October 10, 2019 @07:47PM (#21220337)
Your laptop is Broadwell according to the coreboot source.

Sorry, that means you've got a ME. Part of one (the BUP) but a required ME nonetheless:

https://www.coreboot.org/Intel_Management_Engine

Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by m463 on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:11AM (#21221957)
They said it was neutralized.

--

I see now why your comment was so strongly worded...

"I know we would be interested in assisting System76 (or other prebuilt system OEMs) to start offering POWER products as true open source, owner controlled alternatives to Intel and AMD"

Although what you're doing is laudable, I think your form of communication might alienate the kinds of people who might support your mission.

Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by tpearson-raptor on Friday October 11, 2019 @02:39AM (#21222073)
It was that strongly worded because I've been fighting the "neutralized" rumor ever since it was started (presumably to try to save x86 market share among security conscious people, given its origin). I'm tired of doing so, and it's unfortunately showing, which means I'll probably have to stop talking about it. That's a loss for everyone, especially those who might unknowingly trust their lives to a hostile machine in certain repressive regimes and pay the ultimate price as a result.

This "neutralized" or "disabled" ME rumor is extremely persistent over literally years, probably due to feeding on what people want to hear versus what the reality of the situation is. Every time it's propagated not only does the person that believes it not get what they think they got, but it harms anyone trying to push for truly open computing vs. half-open computing.

The Cambridge English Dictionary states the following primary definition for the word "neutralize":

"1. to stop something from having an effect"

If you were to actually do that to the ME on a modern Intel system (or the PSP on a modern AMD system), here's what you would see:

<blank screen>

This is because the system will not come out of reset until at least the BUP (and for newer systems more ME modules as well) have started. Those modules are signed, proprietary binaries for which source code will never be released per Intel's statements.

So, we have an apparent conflict. How can the ME be "neutralized", according to the standard English definition, while your machine still starts (thereby proving the ME has had at least some required effect prior to coreboot launching)?

Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by lonelappde on Thursday October 10, 2019 @10:50PM (#21221121)
You seem to know and care a lot about this, but your writing style is really off-putting to less informed users. Consider adjusting your approach to educating people about how open source low level software works and doesn't work.
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by tpearson-raptor on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:02PM (#21221182)
I was being snarky in this particular post. Normally I don't do that, but I kinda got tired of saying the same thing over and over and tried something new. Didn't mean to offend, only challenge.
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by yellowapple on Thursday October 10, 2019 @02:26PM (#21217655)
Atheros chipsets tend to not require any non-free code (be it on the driver or firmware side), including their USB wifi dongles. I've had mediocre (at best) experiences with them, however, what with frequent stability and signal strength issues on what I'm pretty sure to be the hardware side (though I've found this is true of pretty much every wifi chipset out there, so I guess it's okay relatively-speaking).
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by throwaway2048 on Thursday October 10, 2019 @04:18PM (#21218738)
This used to be true, but since Qualcomm bought them out, they have done a complete 180 and basically reverted to totally closed designs (closed firmware, closed drivers, no spec sheet). The 9xxx chip-sets (which are only 802.11n) are the last ones designed before Qualcomm took over, the 10xxx chip-sets (802.11AC+) are closed and completely locked down, you cant even change your MAC address its all stuffed into a giant psuedo-driver firmware blob.
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by snagglegaggle on Thursday October 10, 2019 @05:53PM (#21219557)
Are there any "open" 802.11ac chipsets? A quick search didn't find any.
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by throwaway2048 on Thursday October 10, 2019 @10:23PM (#21221012)
No, closest thing is the mediatek chip-sets that at least dont enforce wifi parameters via firmware (fullmac vs softmac).
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by madez on Thursday October 10, 2019 @11:00PM (#21221163)
Things are getting worse, not better, on many fronts when it comes to user freedom and control over their devices. Apparently many responsible engineers in this area lack the ethical consideration of their work. The more I see this, the more I worry about bridges, airplanes, and every other piece of technology that is developed by engineers that may or may not have ethical principles.
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by generatorguy on Friday October 11, 2019 @12:39AM (#21221610)
Good thing the people building bridges and airplanes are Professional Engineers and everyone can call themselves anything they want except for P. Eng.
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by snagglegaggle on Friday October 11, 2019 @12:30AM (#21221573)
Do you have any examples of useful devices?
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by yellowapple on Thursday October 10, 2019 @05:06PM (#21219169)
Well that sucks.
Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by Avery3R on Thursday October 10, 2019 @01:38PM (#21217218)
>there isn't even a usb wifi dongle that has an open source wifi driver

Qualcomm atheros?

Re:System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open... by awinter-py on Thursday October 10, 2019 @04:17PM (#21218723)
they have OSS firmware for some devices, but not recent ones it seems like?

https://github.com/qca/open-ath9k-htc-firmware