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Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by brosinante on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:00PM (#21205178)
Yes, creepy sexists need our protection and it's exactly the same thing as playing farmville on the bathroom.
Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by Quekid5 on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:11PM (#21205300)
You know, it's quite possible for multiple people to be "wrong" in a given situation. It's possible both the employee and the sysop to be wrong.
Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by yaseer on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:27PM (#21205507)
I agree, - but morality is sticky and complex.

It was obviously wrong to be the creepy sexist.

In the abstract sense, it is wrong to invade privacy.

But then, if in your invasion of privacy you uncover a wrongdoing, the right thing to do is report it.

It would be wrong to read the CFO's email inbox, and probably illegal. But then if you uncover they are committing fraud, you need to report it to police, as well as confess your own crime.

Unfortunately, there's never easy rules for these things.

Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by WBrad on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @03:18PM (#21206844)
I get what you're saying here but:

>In the abstract sense, it is wrong to invade privacy.

You have no real expectation of privacy when using company owned equipment. This was almost certainly spelled out to the employee in question in the acceptable use policy he agreed to upon being hired. Companies have to operate this way so they can investigate computers if compelled to by court or law, and so they can recover important information off computers when the user exits the company.

If he was using a BYOD computer I'd have a different opinion on the matter.

Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by Quekid5 on Thursday October 10, 2019 @01:37PM (#21217213)
The definition of acceptable use (and expectations of privacy) differs a lot between different countries. For example, in the EU, I believe that any personal email received on a work account is actually considered "beyond reach" of your employer.

I don't know, but I imagine that such considerations could easily extend to your password.

Btw, how did the sysop know that what he recovered was the actual password? I mean, it's unlikely, but at least theoretically possible that it was a false positive. The password hashes in those days were pretty weak... Just a thought; I don't think it realistically was a false positive.

Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by WBrad on Friday October 11, 2019 @09:08AM (#21223953)
That is true, there are stronger privacy protections in the EU in general. I don't consider the actions here morally justifiable, just legally.

As far as it being the actual password, a false positive AND the fact he had been creeping on a coworker at the same time seems extraordinarily unlikely to me.

Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by Quekid5 on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:26PM (#21286028)
Agreed about the false positive, btw. It was just a hypothetical, but court cases ("beyond reasonable doubt") have a very high standard of proof.
Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by yaseer on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @05:13PM (#21208148)
You make a compelling point. The key is 'acceptable use'.

Acceptable use is cracking passwords in an investigation with just cause.

Acceptable use is a script to automate the checking of weak passwords, and notify users.

Unacceptable use is an admin browsing cracked passwords, without just cause.

I personally think acting on the information obtained afterwards is acceptable, but some would disagree.

Remember even in some courts, evidence obtained by police illegally cannot be submitted for trial.

I maintain these moral problems are hard ones.

Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by Quekid5 on Thursday October 10, 2019 @01:31PM (#21217142)
You said "... but morality is ..." and just agreed with me, I think?

Ultimately, I think it's a case-by-case on this type of thing.

Btw, I find it very interesting that e.g. most EU courts will consider "tampered-with" evidence, but obviously take into account that it may have been tampered with and so accord it much less weight than "pristine" evidence. Whereas US courts will[0] absolutely throw out anything that's shown to be even mildly "tampered-with". I don't know what the right answer is, but it's an interesting question to ponder.

[0] Maybe this is wrong; I'm not a US-ian, so I may not have perfect insight into the court system :|.

Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by yaseer on Friday October 11, 2019 @07:20AM (#21223252)
I agreed. I just wanted to take it a stage further and emphasise the definition of 'wrong' is always complex in moral discussions.
Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by Quekid5 on Friday October 11, 2019 @08:03PM (#21229496)
Noice :). I apologize for the somewhat aggressive/sarcastic tone at the start of my reply. Reading it back, it sounded so much "more" (in every way) than I intended.
Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by ben509 on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @06:34PM (#21208904)
> It was obviously wrong to be the creepy sexist.

It's not obvious as we haven't heard his side of the story.

Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by lilyball on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @03:22PM (#21206909)
It is possible, but that's not what happened. sysop was in the right here. Stop defending someone's right to be extremely creepy on company equipment over the well-being of the creep's coworkers.
Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by parliament32 on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:28PM (#21205519)
It's one of those "everyone sucks here" situations.
Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by dang on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:01PM (#21205971)
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

"Don't be snarky."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by coldtea on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:59PM (#21205954)
If people could read your thoughts (or private messages) I'm pretty sure they could find at least 5 things to fire you and/or publicly whip you at a pillory in the central square of your city.

So don't be so arrogant about someone being "creepy" when they are not mentioned as doing anything specific in public...

Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by AlexTWithBeard on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:39PM (#21205667)
Yes, a person alleged to be a creepy sexist deserves some protection and due process.
Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by sokoloff on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:46PM (#21205762)
> Yes, a person alleged to be a creepy sexist deserves some protection and due process.

I agree with this. Everyone deserves due process.

It sounds in this situation like they got their due process. (HR didn't fire them based on the password report, but rather used diligence and due process to investigate/corroborate and only then terminate them.)

Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by behringer on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:03PM (#21206004)
Yep you got it right.
Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by michannne on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:43PM (#21205726)
Cool, false equivalence seems to be the norm on HN nowadays
Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by dang on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:02PM (#21205987)
Please don't reply to a bad comment with another bad comment. That only makes this place even worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Ken Thompson's Unix Password by rukittenme on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:06PM (#21206033)
Please provide to me all of your personal details. Don't be alarmed. This is standard procedure. We just want to make sure you have the correct moral character to participate on this forum.

Browser and search history, email passwords, diaries, and a list of medical professionals that I can contact to vouch for your mental stability should suffice.

We will reach out in the next few days to conduct a character assessment review. Thank you for your cooperation!

If you have any questions, do not hesitate to fill out a form with the Health and Safety Commission offices. Our hours are 10 AM to 3 PM every other Tuesday of every other month.

Remember, your health and safety is important to us.