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Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by dlivingston on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @12:21PM (#21204683)
> Those who run small businesses find it nearly impossible to walk away from Facebook, Instagram, Yelp, Etsy, even Amazon. Employers often mandate that their workers use certain apps or systems like Zoom, Slack, and Google Docs. “It is only the hyper-privileged who are now saying, ‘I’m not going to give my kids this,’ or, ‘I’m not on social media,’” says Rumman Chowdhury, a data scientist at Accenture. “You actually have to be so comfortable in your privilege that you can opt out of things.”

What an absolutely absurd thing to say.

In the context of small business owners, your Facebook/Instagram/Yelp presence is no different than that of a "hyper-privileged" company, sans the advertising budget and amount of staffers who work on it.

In the context of your employer, enterprise software like Google Docs and Slack are (ostensibly) different than their consumer counterparts, in terms of analytics, data collection, and advertising. Further, the "hyper-privileged" middle- and upper-managers at tech companies are far more likely to use these forms of enterprise software than the under-privileged classes in America.

In the context of personal life, you are under absolutely no obligation, regardless of social caste, to join Instagram or Facebook and it's disingenuous to claim otherwise.

There is a certain class of media, of which I count Vox as a preeminent example, which constantly use hyperbole and socially-charged arguments in contexts where it doesn't fit or make sense.

Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by blotter_paper on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:13PM (#21205316)
> In the context of personal life, you are under absolutely no obligation, regardless of social caste, to join Instagram or Facebook and it's disingenuous to claim otherwise.

I've had an employer require me to make a facebook account. They let me use a fake name, but it seems like that decision was made during hiring by my immediate manager. Upper management only allowed it to continue because it was agreed upon during hiring. If I were required to use my real name, it would be impossible to stop actual acquaintances from seeing my profile. You're not obligated to work for a specific company, of course, but saying "nobody is obligated to clean toilets regardless of social class" would seem ignorant of the reality of working class life.

Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by anovikov on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:00PM (#21205966)
Why would employer require anyone to make a facebook account? Also if you make one but never post anything on it, how does it help the employer with whatever their goals may be?
Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by Impossible on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:32PM (#21206356)
Facebook is an employer that has a legitimate reason to require that you have a Facebook account.
Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by jogjayr on Thursday October 10, 2019 @02:14AM (#21211464)
It never came up when I interviewed there :-) and I doubt it's why I didn't get the offer.
Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by blotter_paper on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:39PM (#21206454)
They were advertising products via facebook posts. They did check in on the account periodically to see if posts were being made.
Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by anovikov on Thursday October 10, 2019 @12:42AM (#21210962)
Ah then it's normal, like an employee is supposed to participate in company's marketing efforts in that way. I see no problem with it, as long this is a part of the job and written in contract, i.e. something he's getting paid for.

It's not like they wanted me to make a Facebook account to keep tabs on my private life.

Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by blotter_paper on Friday October 11, 2019 @11:35AM (#21225364)
Cleaning toilets is also "normal," and you're free to see no problem with it. But if somebody acts like nobody has to clean toilets as a condition of emplyoment and calls anyone who says otherwise "disingenuous," I'm gonna call them out on being wrong.
Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by beerandt on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @04:27PM (#21207641)
Americans who "work for the federal government" were required to delete their social media profiles as a condition of employment. Not sure if this is still the case.

Edit: For those that don't know, thats code for an intelligence agency or similar.

Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by RandomBacon on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @10:29PM (#21210300)
Re you edit: No, it's not.
Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by beerandt on Friday October 11, 2019 @03:04PM (#21227397)
It is literally what intelligence employees are told to say when asked where they work.
Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by esotericn on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:46PM (#21205772)
I strongly disagree with the shoehorning of the term "privilege" into basically every situation that involves any level of inequality, but I think the idea is vaguely sound.

I don't use Facebook, or LinkedIn, or whatever else.

I can do that because:

a) I have enough personal wealth that I am comfortable with working for reasons other than money.

This is distinct from simply being able to afford it at a minimal level.

b) I have a level of self confidence, hard won, that allows me to stand up to people and say no.

This might mean, for example, interrupting a conversation at a bureaucratic firm about how "all X are required to do Y"; or just not doing it; if I think it's wrong.

I don't agree with calling it privilege - it's more like a personality trait, or perhaps even a talent or skill, because it's developed rather than bestowed.

But not everyone is in that sort of situation. A checkout worker, for the most part, just does what the boss says. Regardless of the actual personal power they have, that's just "how it works" out in the real world.

Society is not full of hyper individualistic people. If it were, it would look radically different, if it even functioned.

Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by jodrellblank on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:14PM (#21206134)
You think being wealthy enough to not need to work, isn’t a privilege, it’s a talent or personality trait???

Edit for the -1 downvote: being able to interrupt a meeting to refuse to do some work, because you have enough personal resources that the negative social, financial or reputation consequences won't harm you, is "A special advantage, immunity, permission, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual". It is a privilege, held by very few people.

Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by esotericn on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @03:04PM (#21206702)
It's not a binary thing.

Being born in a developed country in a relatively stable home environment is a privilege.

Having the above as a baseline, and being born with a particular set of talents and personality can propel a person far higher than that.

I dislike the use of the term 'privilege' when used in the context of any form of success because it is, as you point out, tautological.

Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by jodrellblank on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @05:23PM (#21208258)
That you dislike it, doesn't make it inaccurate - it feels a bit like you're saying "it's unfair to call me privileged - I earned it". But regardless of how it came about, it describes you in certain situations, and enables you to do things others cannot.

People who need their job and have few other options are not necessarily docile and compliant by personality, as you seem to be saying; you can be outspoken and principled by personality /and/ have the privilege to be able to use that, where others can be outspoken and principled by personality but must appear docile and compliant to avoid consequences which you can ignore.

Were you instead running for public office, you would need to avoid taking unpopular positions or you would be out of the running. You couldn't ignore the consequence of people not voting for you, compared to an unelected positions who don't have to care about popularity.

It's not tautological to say that success ~= privilege, but that is where the idea of "fuck you money" comes from - it's an amount of money which lets anyone do the things you attribute to your talent and personality. If anyone can buy it, how much personality or talent can it involve? And if it's situation dependent - you might not do the same things if working behind a Top Secret classification, or conscripted into the military, or if dependent on your public image - again how much can it be "success"?

Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by esotericn on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @06:29PM (#21208864)
Oh, I'm super privileged. Loadsamoney white male Oxford graduate. I don't quite have all the boxes ticked - I had a poor upbringing (though in a wealthy country).

That said - I don't think it's even meaningful to discuss whether someone earned their place in life. Personally I pretty much figure I was born with a reasonably "useful" organization of neurons or whatever and so lo and behold, I get rewards whilst random other people suffer. Nature is a bitch.

But I digress.

What I'm trying to get at, I think, is that the personality traits govern what you actually end up doing in life, right.

One does not simply "run for public office". You make an active choice to do that - at least if you believe in free will anyway - and so you've intentionally limited your capacity to stand out of line.

I mean, in some sense, you could even say that running for public office is precisely the opposite of that. You're intentionally choosing to fall in line with a large portion of society - you're going to be their representative!

I could expand on this more (your other examples are fairly similar - top secret classification? like that just happens?), but really what I'm trying to get at is - the level of privilege required in order to stand for what you believe in really depends on what you want to do.

You probably can't simultaneously be an oil executive and a climate protestor. No amount of money will change that.

But anyone - anyone can stand up for what they believe in. There might be sacrifice. You allude to it in 'avoid consequences which you can ignore'.

Some people - a _lot_ of people - are loss averse to the extent that they just won't do anything interesting. It's income / career / whatever maximization to the end.

I've been a stubborn prick since as far back as I can remember. Before the money. It's my defining characteristic - for good and bad.

Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by laurex on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @01:58PM (#21205928)
To me there's an apt comparison between data-sucking, attention-sucking technology and sugar.

It's healthy to minimise consumption of them, and harder to do when your decision-making brain reserves are taxed by anxiety, social pressure, and lack of good available alternatives.

Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by emosupportfi on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @12:42PM (#21204917)
I agree that this probably could have been phrased in a slightly less charged way, but the truth of the matter is that these companies have such a large market share that a small business can't really afford to ignore those platforms, as it gives them an opportunity to reach far more customers than they could under more general marketing approaches.

Whereas, larger companies may very well have the brand recognition to lean away from those platforms and comfortably absorb the lost potential business. It's that ability to survive that is being described as "privilege". Part of a pretty terrible linguistic shift around the idea of businesses as distinct individuals.

And as a final note, what you're zeroing in on is a quote from Rumman Chowdhury, so it's probably not Rose Eveleth's words (The Vox Reporter), though she did absolutely choose to include them.

Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by mpalczewski on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:09PM (#21206064)
From their about page "Vox explains the news."

So they tell you how you are supposed to think. Smells like propaganda to me.

Re:The myth of inevitable technological progress by lacker on Wednesday October 09, 2019 @02:48PM (#21206550)
Oh no, my employer might mandate that I use Zoom!

If that's your biggest complaint about your job, you have a pretty nice job.