Between harmony and human rights, it's absolutely clear to a westerner which one is more important.
From your tone, it is also absolutely clear which one you would choose.
> If anything I said is untrue, please correct me
It's possible to only say true things and still be biased. This is probably the most common way of spinning a story for "fake news". Some major events I would definitely include are:
- The 2015 Causeway bay disappearances which justified the fear of extradition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...
- Carrie Lam doesn't actually have autonomy and needs confirmation from beijing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOft2Y6mH_g
- Escalation of force, hiring triads to attack citizens, blinding journalist with rubber bullets, shooting live ammo at students in the chest, etc etc.
There are a lot more I can add but halfway through I realize the details don't really matter. The difference in cultural values will make the interpretation of these events irreconcilable anyway.
To an individualist, the only fact that matters is that at least 2 million in a city of 8 million want the right to their own destiny. To a collectivist, the only fact that matters is that the government is building a more harmonious society so the ends justify any means.
What have been the human rights violations from the government, aside from responses to protester violence?
Labeling yourself "human rights" does not automatically make you right.
> It's possible to only say true things and still be biased. This is probably the most common way of spinning a story for "fake news".
Certainly. And you are immune to biases and spinning "fake news" ... how?
> Escalation of force, hiring triads to attack citizens, blinding journalist with rubber bullets, shooting live ammo at students in the chest,
"triads"? "fake news" much?
What else from this list is anything but a response to protester violence? Or do you think the policy should just stand still and take the beating?
> To an individualist,
Keep throwing labels around all you want, it doesn't make you right.
Your freedom to shine your laser light ends where another person's eyes begin.
Human rights violation by china are well documented. You can look them up yourself assuming you have access to an uncensored internet. I cited disappearing people as the example that I thought was most relevant for the extradition bill.
The triad attacks are definitely real (we are in the age of smartphones after all): https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49071502
I don't think you realize how much the difference in cultural values is making it hard for us to communicate here. Westerners consider what you call "violence and destruction" to be a fair price to pay to have rights guaranteed. Fighting is necessarily ugly but shining laser in eyes is laughably tamed compared to the lengths democratic societies have historically gone to protect their freedoms.
I do understand that some people just want to go on with their daily lives and ignore the atrocities going on in the background as long as it doesn't happen to them. I am not even arguing that's necessarily wrong either, just very different from western thought.
> Human rights violation by china are well documented.
That may have been the case. But we are talking about human rights violations by the Hong Kong government here, and I don't think you have a case here.
> The triad attacks are definitely real
We can certainly demand an independent investigation into this once the violence and destruction stops.
> Westerners consider what you call "violence and destruction" to be a fair price to pay to have rights guaranteed.
I believe the bill was quickly suspended after initial peaceful protests. There's no reason to believe the bill wouldn't be withdrawn if peaceful protests persisted. That's why I believe the violence has been unnecessary and may have even been harmful to the cause.
FWIW, I oppose the bill and support the peaceful protests against the bill.
> shining laser in eyes is laughably tamed
Have you tried that on yourself? Maybe you'll have more empathy for the policy if you had. It looks deceptively benign but is in fact incredibly aggressive.
> I do understand that some people just want to go on with their daily lives ... just very different from western thought.
I doubt it's very different in the west.
A) It’s very difficult to distinguish false-flag violence from hooligans
B) Once violence starts, it’s hard to stop it, but that doesn’t mean that the government should automatically get its way because a small minority of hooligans/false flag operatives got involved
C) Protesting for universal suffrage from an uncontrolled slate of candidates seems eminently reasonable from a western perspective; what do you think is bad about this?
- Using the murder in Taiwan as a pretext to introduce the bill when it could easily have been handled ad hoc with Taiwan.
- Claiming it was a loophole left over by the British when it was very clearly by design.
- Initially refusing to suspend the bill in the face of huge opposition.
- Taking months to fully withdraw the bill and proudly ignoring the protestors.
- Blanket refusing an independent enquiry and unwaveringly supporting police no matter how brutal and unprofessional they've become.
- Seeking permission from Xi to withdraw the bill.
- Introducing an anti-mask law instead of attempting serious reform.
- Threatening internet lock downs instead of attempting serious reform.
- Not criticising the central government for threatening military violence and flagrantly manipulating coverage of HK on the mainland.
Those are just a few that stand out to me though I'm sure there are more I've missed.
Plenty of people in the US hate the current government, but you don't get protests to this degree (i.e. widespread violence) in part because some degree of accountability exists.
It all started a few months ago when someone committed a crime in Taiwan and fled to Hong Kong. To prevent HK from becoming a safe haven for criminals, the Chief Executive of HK proposed a new law to facilitate extradition of these crime suspects from HK to various jurisdictions in the region, including Taiwan and mainland China.
The proposed law even explicitly stated that it's not applicably to crimes political in nature. But some HK people were nevertheless concerned that it might be abused by China to target political dissidents in HK.
So they have taken to the streets to protest that law. As a result, the law was quickly suspended before it had a chance to pass, and a few weeks ago the HK Chief Executive officially announced the withdrawal of the law.
However, despite the concession from the HK government, the protesters pressed on, demanding four more concessions from the government, chief among them universal suffrage, or the direct election of the HK Chief Executive, who up to this point have been nominated from a narrow pool of Beijing-approved candidates, then voted on by a committee.
It's not entirely clear that China even had anything to do with the proposal of the law which started this ordeal. But the protesters have been shrewd to paint a picture, to great effect, of big bad China stomping on the poor helpless people of HK.
What I cannot stress enough, is the rampant violence and destruction from these protesters, which has done this great city, and many innocent citizens, unimaginable harm. Feel free to support their peaceful protests, but please don't simply pile on and encourage these violence and destruction.
(EDIT: If anything I said is untrue, please correct me. Use the truth to argue your side, don't be a coward and hide behind your downvote.)