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Re:Florida schools replacing teachers with computers by yummyfajitas on Tuesday January 18, 2011 @04:24PM (#2117470)
Look, I don't claim to be an expert. I was just asking you to cite some of the voluminous research you claimed existed, and pointing out that the case seems far from clear. I just cited the first two on-point google results, one of which was about grade 1. Also, no one is claiming reduced class sizes have a detrimental effect. The claim is that their effect is small and probably not cost effective.

Now, on to your citations. Your first paper (Konstantantopoulos and Chun) agrees with me. It shows an achievement gain is 0.04-0.1 standard deviations, decreasing with time (they don't even bother to look past grade 8). The increase in cost is 66% (reducing class size from 25 to 15).

Graduation probabilities are also increased by 3% (for students not receiving a free lunch) to 18% (for students receiving a free lunch), after 4 years of small class size (according to the Finn paper). So far, the only effect that seems significant is the graduation probability for students receiving a free lunch (assuming this particular effect is real, rather than just data mining).

(Note: several of your other studies don't even try to address the claim that lower class sizes improve student achievement. Your paper by Woolf and Muennig is just an advocacy piece, assuming that education is the cause of all good things and arguing that we need more of it. )

Re:Florida schools replacing teachers with computers by evgen on Tuesday January 18, 2011 @05:07PM (#2117599)
You cited a study of college-age students and a study from France when there is a wealth of domestic data ready for your to cite and you expect the claims to be taken seriously? As far as your claim that these were the first two on-point google results, I guess it just depends on what you search for:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=research+class+size+student+achievement

I beleive that you are misreading the Konstantantopoulos and Chun if you think that it agrees with you. An achievement gain of that size in education is actually quite significant and both the abstract and text make this clear. To dismiss the fact that the study followed a third grade class for five years and showed improvement down the line by saying that "they don't even bother to look past grade 8" is more spin than reasoned analysis.

Once again, please provide the links to papers that show that smaller class sizes do not have a long-term positive impact on student performance. So far it seems you are much like the anti-CSR group I mentioned previously, all spin and bullshit. Prove me wrong.

Re:Florida schools replacing teachers with computers by yummyfajitas on Tuesday January 18, 2011 @05:42PM (#2117730)
Why the hostility? You picked a different search term than I did, big whoop (I picked "class size student outcome"). I guess that makes me a bullshit artist.

Now, you may be right that a 0.04-0.12 standard deviation improvement is large within the field of educational interventions. All that proves is that the entire field of educational interventions has produced little/no gains.

This is how small 0.12 standard deviations is: http://imgur.com/BJDHc

You and the authors can attempt to spin that as something significant, but it doesn't contradict Patrick's original assertion. He claimed that smaller classes "do little, if anything, for education." You cited a source showing that they do little. You didn't contradict him.

Here is my citation, which shows that smaller classes "do little, if anything, for education": Spyros Konstantopoulos and Vicki Chun, What Are the Long-Term Effects of Small Classes on the Achievement Gap? Evidence from the Lasting Benefits Study, American Journal of Education 116, November 2009.