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Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by pingyong on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @11:52AM (#21071946)
The Cloudflare DNS servers you connect to are in the EU and are subject to EU regulation just like your ISP. You don't have 11 ms (or anything sub-~90 ms) latency to the US.

One thing to consider also is that unencrypted DNS means that virtually anyone can read (and modify) those requests, not just your ISP. That can be before the data enters your ISPs network, or at any point that isn't physically or technically well protected. Or, in the case of state actors, at any point really.

Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by throw0101a on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @12:40PM (#21072450)
> The Cloudflare DNS servers you connect to are in the EU and are subject to EU regulation just like your ISP.

Yeah, sure:

> Primarily the CLOUD Act amends the Stored Communications Act (SCA) of 1986 to allow federal law enforcement to compel U.S.-based technology companies via warrant or subpoena to provide requested data stored on servers regardless of whether the data are stored in the U.S. or on foreign soil.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act

Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by tomschlick on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @02:12PM (#21073502)
The CLOUD Act would do nothing in this case because Cloudflare doesn't store data related to your requests and claims they are regularly audited to prove that.

CF has a lot more privacy minded people to whistle blow on that if they were lying than your local ISP would.

Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by throw0101a on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @02:46PM (#21073868)
Can they be forced to store data?

People at Yahoo were monitoring e-mail on behest of the US government, and not even telling the company's CISO about it:

* https://www.reuters.com/article/us-yahoo-nsa-exclusive-idUSK...

* https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/10/report-fbi-andor...

Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by nickpsecurity on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @09:48PM (#21077414)
"Can they be forced to store data?"

Yes, the Core Secrets leak said the "FBI" would "compel" companies to "SIGINT-enable" their networks if in America. In the Lavabit case, the judge was cool with FBI's proposal to compromise all the users, not tell them about it, and business owner's revenue would be fine. If overseas, there was a spy/soldier group that would take espionage-style action against them. That's if a payment didn't work.

I assume they backdoored all of them, including Apple, with them instructing the companies to hide that fact. They then use parallel construction for the important cases. The less-important cases would go through the regular system. The FBI made a big deal about that one phone to try to expand the All Writs Act to make their access easier. At this point, they probably have access to a lot of it but want their legal, observable powers to be expanded.

That's how it works in a Dual State: a police state with a regular government you can defend against running side-by-side with a more powerful, secret government that can do whatever they want to many targets with secrecy and criminal immunity. Unlike previous Dual States, they restrict the targets and methods of the Deep State more to make its damage invisible to most voters. They think it won't hurt them, just deserving people. Meanwhile, they gradually shift more power previously afforded by the Deep State to the Public State while Deep State collects and passes more information over time to the enforcers of the Public State.

The Snowden leaks confirmed both Deep State activities and the collaboration between the two with denials built in.

Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by tomschlick on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @02:52PM (#21073952)
I'm not sure.

Going by the Apple example, they refused to create new code to do something they were not in the past. That limit made the courts agree with them that they could not be compelled to create something new.

Yahoo / ISPs already have the data so they have to comply with the law by providing that data upon request.

Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by throw0101a on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @03:18PM (#21074272)
> Yahoo / ISPs already have the data so they have to comply with the law by providing that data upon request.

Data is being sent to CF: can they be forced to raise the logging level from "INFO" to "DEBUG"? See also Lavabit:

> Lavabit is an open-source encrypted webmail service, founded in 2004. The service suspended its operations on August 8, 2013 after the U.S. Federal Government ordered it to turn over its Secure Sockets Layer (SSL) private keys, in order to allow the government to spy on Edward Snowden's email.[2][3][4][5]

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit

Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by jachee on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @08:23PM (#21076992)
I imagine that at its scale, CF could legitimately claim technical limitations prevent them from collecting data at the volume of traffic that 1.1.1.1 gets.
Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by nickpsecurity on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @09:52PM (#21077434)
With NSA's expert testimony, the FBI could legitimately claim that was BS and provide collection hardware to "assist" them. ;)
Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by bscphil on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @10:49PM (#21077701)
I think it's important to realize that this is basically shifting the whole discussion. What DoH is supposed to provide is privacy from your ISP. It's not claiming to provide privacy from the government, and most people don't expect to have DNS privacy from the government (that's not to say it's not desirable). So this point is basically just misdirection.

If your adversary is the United States government, then no, DoH isn't great for you if you're not in the United States and if the US can't get to your ISP / DNS provider anyway, and if your only DoH endpoints are owned by US companies. You also have much bigger problems than DoH is attempting to solve.

Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by ti_ranger on Thursday September 26, 2019 @01:16AM (#21078406)
> The Cloudflare DNS servers you connect to are in the EU and are subject to EU regulation just like your ISP.

In my (non-EU) country, ISPs are subject to relatively strict regulations, and Cloudflare doesn't fall under those regulations.

> One thing to consider also is that unencrypted DNS means that virtually anyone can read (and modify) those requests

Not "virtually anyone", it would require physical access to the GPON fibre between my home and the MSAN/CO/Exchange (non-trivial, scales really bandly), or the MetroEthernet backhaul from the MSAN to the BNG (where they would trip alarms and the last-mile provider would investigate). From the BNG onwards traffic is encrypted on-the-wire (MPLS with group encryption as far as I know) until it is handed over to the ISP. My ISP co-locates caching DNS with their hand-over routers, so here it would require tapping the fibres in their data-center (not happening without their knowledge).

Also, someone who is just mass-collecting my DNS requests without any other identifying data, and no ability to correlate IP address to users, has limited privacy exposure.

A centralised third-party, who can correlate source IP addresses with user-identifying browser cookies from other HTTP requests in the same time window seems like a much bigger privacy concern.

Americans, please sort out your last-mile provider+ISP monopolies (e.g. lobby your politicians for regulations that enforce competition), so that you can stop forcing unnecessary technical solutions on the rest of the world, who doesn't have this problem (if ISPs do anti-customer things, they lose business).

Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by judge2020 on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @12:06PM (#21072058)
> or at any point that isn't physically or technically well protected

Kind of off topic, but I was wondering if ISPs use any encryption whatsoever between the home and their IX/servers. Could you theoretically attach something to the wire in the ground, or monitor a satellite-based internet signal, and observe the HTTP/unencrypted data?

Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by missosoup on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @12:14PM (#21072146)
There's no additional encryption layer if that's what you're asking. There will still be multiplexing and whatnot, but if you can recover a particular stream from that, it'll be the same stream that the endpoints see.
Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by Hikikomori on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @05:14PM (#21075566)
There is macsec, probably not that common but the ISP I was working for was looking to implement it in their network.

Multiplexing on what?

Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by tialaramex on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @06:11PM (#21076152)
> Multiplexing on what?

Light.

Optical fibres can move _way_ more data than actual households need, so you use one fibre to move data for, say, 16 endpoints until you get closer, and split it later, saving the cost of 15 long fibres.

You can do everything so that there are no active components out in the field where it's annoying except at the customer site, a passive splitter is quite capable of shoving frequencies A-A' to Alice, B-B' to Bob and so on, it's not just solid state it's completely passive, no more likely to need maintenance than, say, the fibre itself.

Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by Hikikomori on Thursday September 26, 2019 @08:10AM (#21080171)
Not sure how that is relevant to OP's question then. You're describing PON, ONT-OLT communication is typically encrypted as well which makes the response make even less sense.

Wouldn't say that the cost benefits are from that, majority of the cost is going to be from putting fibre into the ground or on poles, same cost for 1 or 200 pairs. The real benefit is that you don't need any active equipment like in an ethernet distribution network.

Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by tialaramex on Thursday September 26, 2019 @09:13AM (#21080594)
> ONT-OLT communication is typically encrypted as well

Is it? I guess that's conceivable though it looks _optional_ to me, but I have no statistics as to how widely the option is taken up.

Nevertheless the G.948 work basically doesn't care about eavesdroppers. The threat model they've engineered around is that Eve lives next to Bob, and so if she tweaks the ONT (which legally belongs to her ISP but is on her property) she can see Bob's messages, whereas we're talking about a fibre tap to receive everybody's messages and then we'll root through that for Bob's messages.

G.948 as amended makes random keys in each ONT and sends them to the OLT, knowing Eve can't see the key chosen by Bob's ONT (it passes upstream not downstream). But as an eavesdropper with a fibre tap we do see both directions so this countermeasure doesn't inconvenience us.

Good on them for spelling out a threat model, and to me their model seems reasonable (if Alice buys Premium Sports for $180 per month we don't want Bob to watch Premium Sports free by pirating Alice's data) but it doesn't stop bad guys snooping this traffic.

Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by Hikikomori on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @05:16PM (#21075587)
Anyone with physical access can read unencrypted traffic if the ISP has not implemented any link layer encryption. All you need is to slightly bend a fiber and it will leak light.
Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by mtsr on Thursday September 26, 2019 @02:13AM (#21078690)
There is a perfectly good alternative which is encrypted DNS or DNS-over-TLS. That should be implemented instead. Sure it’s harder, because it’s decentralized, but that’s the whole point of DNS.
Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by tjoff on Wednesday September 25, 2019 @02:24PM (#21073624)
Regulations of cloudfare and an ISP are often hugely different though.
Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by pergadad on Thursday September 26, 2019 @02:04AM (#21078639)
It's an untested legal situation: EU claims authority (GDPR for European customers) AND US claims authority (various snooping acts binding for US companies even when working abroad). At least in public there's no resolution at this point in time.
Re:Centralised DoH is bad for privacy by chopin on Thursday September 26, 2019 @03:47AM (#21079043)
In contrast to the US the EU does almost nothing to enforce their claimed authority.