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Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by killjoywashere on Sunday September 22, 2019 @02:54AM (#21040040)
My dad was an industrial engineer for BN and designed natural gas powered locomotive systems (not just just the engine, but the tender, the gas pipelines and filling stations, etc). He was a railroad fanatic. A quarter of the basement was dedicated to model railroading. I have eaten on one of Burlington Northern's executive dining cars. A phenomenal experience, far nicer than anything I've ever seen in any airplane's first class cabin. Wood paneling, brass, sauteed salmon and glass windows so clean you forgot they were there. He went to the Soviet Union during Glasnost and had his own KGB agent. The Russians came to the US to negotiate technology transfer. I grew up in awe of the railroads. Our neighbor worked for Union Pacific. In my world, men worked in rail. I learned research was hard, and development was even harder but the national scale of the endeavor is what made it worthwhile.

I never understood why we never went anywhere on the trains. I went to Tokyo and was floored by the immensity of the passenger rail system. Even in San Diego I would ride my bike 17 miles down to the nearest station and take the Coaster into National City to go to work. And then, I was in DC for a month and I took the overnight Acela Amtrak Express from DC to Boston and back. Gritty, dirty. Like a noir film type ... gritty. For another $50 I could have taken a 1 hour flight after dinner and been in bed at a decent hour. As a citizen, I'm a fan of the idea of passenger rail. As a customer, I'm not a huge fan of Amtrak, at least under current management.

Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by endymi0n on Sunday September 22, 2019 @06:30AM (#21040633)
In the end, the mechanisms at fault here are core to American identity: individualism and blind trust in the free market, even where these fail — so I don‘t think this decline can be changed.

Free market, because first, rail leads itself to monopolies. Rail infrastructure is expensive, and you need significant area coverage until you can get enough customers. So if you built one, you as a rail provider will go at extracting the most possible value, since you don‘t have competition. Classic free market failure. The solution here would be to have at least four (proven number to avoid oligopolies) private train providers competing on public infrastructure. Since Americans shudder already at the word „public“, that‘s a significant hurdle.

Individualism because in the US, people have a propensity to not share rides with others. Same fear of „public“ IMHO, as long as public transportation is thought of existing solely for poor people until they can afford a car, nothing is going to change.

Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by Reason077 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @07:13AM (#21040766)
> "Free market, because first, rail leads itself to monopolies."

There's no reason why train operators should also own the fixed infrastructure. Truck companies don't own the interstate highway system, and airlines don't own all the airports.

Why not have private train operators (passenger & freight) bid for routes / slots / capacity on a publicly-owned rail network? Lucrative routes between major cities will return significant profits, while regional routes will require support/subsidy. But in either case, competition between operators promotes cost efficiency, innovation, and a focus on service quality.

Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by japanoise on Sunday September 22, 2019 @07:31AM (#21040821)
We have that in the UK, and unfortunately it doesn't work very well. Obviously the UK is different to the States in a number of ways, but you might want to watch Shaun's video on the subject: https://youtu.be/nP95Frc0v4k
Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by Reason077 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @08:12AM (#21040998)
Yes, the UK model isn't perfect. For the most part, it doesn't result in true competition because train operating companies are awarded monopolies over regions and routes rather than actually competing against other. The few routes that really do have competition between operators (like London-Birmingham) are also the routes that have the most competitive fares!

One solution would be to auction off packages of "slots" on the most profitable, and capacity constrained, routes (eg: east & west coast main lines) rather than franchise them as single monolithic entities.

As for "not working very well", those who remember the days of government-owned-and-operated British Rail will attest that the current system is a significant improvement!

Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by jen20 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @08:23AM (#21041037)
Italy has the concept of competition on the same route - at least on long distance routes, Italo compete with TrenItalia. The result is cheap, pleasant long distance service. It's a much nicer model than the UK has, certainly.
Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by klez on Sunday September 22, 2019 @10:23AM (#21041485)
"Pleasant" is subjective. In the last couple years I had to do Venice-Rome relatively often. It's a 3.5 hours trip, if everything goes well. Usually it's been 4, and in a couple of occasions 6.
Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by michaelt on Sunday September 22, 2019 @10:41AM (#21041565)
What happens if you're booked on a train from Company A and it doesn't run, and the next train is from Company B? Do you have to let it pass and wait for a Company A train, as that's all you've got tickets for?
Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by Reason077 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @05:54PM (#21044216)
> "What happens if you're booked on a train from Company A and it doesn't run, and the next train is from Company B?"

In the UK, you can buy expensive, flexible tickets which are valid on any train and any reasonable route, or you can buy cheaper tickets with various restrictions, typically one or more of:

- Valid only on a particular route/operator

- Valid only on off-peak services

- Valid only on a specific train/time

- Must be purchased a certain period in advance (usually by the previous day)

However, in the event of significant disruption, and trains are running late or cancelled, an announcement is usually made relaxing the cheap ticket restrictions. At the very least, if you have a cheap advance ticket and your train is cancelled or delayed, then you're allowed to use it on the next available service, regardless of operator.

Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by imjustsaying on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:23AM (#21041760)
the same thing as when it happens with your airline
Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by kmlx on Monday September 23, 2019 @10:17AM (#21049132)
> We have that in the UK, and unfortunately it doesn't work very well.

the problem isn't the model as Japan has the best trains in the world and runs on a similar one.

" As of April 2015, 211 companies and entities were registered with MLIT as railway operators in Japan.3 A number of these are involved in multiple activities, combining operations of both railway and other transportation services. "

https://www.eubusinessinjapan.eu/sites/default/files/railway...

Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by pfdietz on Sunday September 22, 2019 @08:56AM (#21041148)
Or maybe, the free market is just delivering a judgment you don't like.
Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by onetimeposter1 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @10:08AM (#21041425)
It's always funny when people criticize the state of American rail based on their preferences and hand wave a solution into existence, as if it's all that simple.

Cars are much more practical for travel in the US largely because the cost of fuel is much lower than in Europe, Canada, etc. Perhaps in Europe cars would be used more if they were a more affordable option.

Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by dantheman on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:41AM (#21041855)
Cars are heavily used in Europe, too. And so are flights. Trains are great for people from America on vacation because it's a novelty and most of destinations are near each other.

I loved riding trains in the EU but often would need to rent a car or fly.

Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by Noos on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:25AM (#21041769)
There's so much wishing and hand waving based on ideology here that it honestly is annoying to read many articles.
Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by gok on Sunday September 22, 2019 @09:21AM (#21041233)
> The solution here would be to have at least four (proven number to avoid oligopolies) private train providers competing on public infrastructure

It's mostly privately owned, but you are basically describing the current state of the current US rail network. The United States has an extremely extensive intercity rail network, with dozens of operators. This was basically all built by the dreaded free market, by the way.

The trouble is that the large railroads are only moving freight, because of the misguided decision to nationalize 20 passenger rail systems under Amtrak. We should have just continued to subsidize passenger service under the private operators.

Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by howard941 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @12:24PM (#21042163)
As I remember it subsidies weren't on the table. When Penn Central tanked politics limited the universe of solutions to either nationalization into Amtrak and Conrail, or death.
Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by imjustsaying on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:30AM (#21041796)
>free market

just a nitpick but land ownership-based industries, in which you get a license from the government to own and lease out monopolies on land, are inherently far from free markets. ive always wondered if land ownership could be made to be more free market-like.

Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by chiph on Sunday September 22, 2019 @07:09AM (#21040748)
I don't understand why they won't run a platform car on the back of the trains and sell tickets as a super-premium class. It'd be the most profitable seats on the train because of what you'd charge for the experience, much like how the few 1st class seats on an jet earns the airline more than the entire economy class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc

Sure, the product is basically the same - a ride from Point A to Point B. But if you offer a private dining room, an observation lounge, a steward who attends to just you and 3 other cabins, you can charge way more than an economy seat.

By only focusing on the "Point A to Point B" aspects, they're entering a downward financial spiral.

Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by wool_gather on Sunday September 22, 2019 @12:54PM (#21042381)
Unfortunately for the cross-country routes they already have pricing -- for the sleeping berths -- that's airline first class level, with service that's nearly indistinguishable from just having a bucket seat. One of the few "perks" was...wait for it...meals in the dining car.
Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by klez on Sunday September 22, 2019 @10:31AM (#21041513)
In Italy we have a business class which also has small (4 people) private rooms so you can have meetings while traveling. Not exactly what you had in mind, but still an extra over the "point a to point b" aspect.
Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by chiph on Sunday September 22, 2019 @12:00PM (#21041982)
I specifically didn't mention a business class ticket, because except for the Northeast US, there won't be any business travelers because the trip takes too long -- they'll fly.

But in the Northeast, offering a small private office so that some colleagues can work during the otherwise non-productive 4 hour trip from Boston to New York makes a lot of sense.

Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by klez on Sunday September 22, 2019 @01:31PM (#21042616)
I'm not familiar with travel times in the US at all, but aren't there any trips outside of the North-East area (I don't know, North to South California?) that would make sense by train and that are long enough that this small meeting room concept would make sense?
Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by therealcamino on Sunday September 22, 2019 @02:39PM (#21043066)
There are cities within distances where it would make sense in several regions, but the speeds would be terrible because infrastructure is not up to the task (example: 300 miles in 7 hours 45 minutes). The rails don't support high speed service, there is no electrification, and the rails themselves are owned by freight companies. If the time was productive, you might get some small number of people to take it, but the excruciating slowness wouldn't appeal to many people.
Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by chiph on Sunday September 22, 2019 @05:19PM (#21044031)
What I have heard is that the sweet spot for high-speed rail travel in the US is to place major stations about 300 miles (500 km) apart. So running from Texas to Minnesota up the middle of the country you'd have 6 or 7 major stations. Travelling East-West from New York to Los Angeles, you'd have 11 or 12 major stations.

The only viable (and still not funded) project is the Southeast Corridor project, from Washington DC to Atlanta Georgia. Top speed is likely to be about 110 mph (180 kph). Average speed will be lower because the passenger trains will always be held up by slower freight trains (no dedicated tracks, like the TGV has)

Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by protomyth on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:10AM (#21041700)
I never understood why we never went anywhere on the trains.

Cargo makes more money than people transport and most people preferred air; and short range rail is very expensive due to all the legal barriers.

We have an amazing rail system in the USA, it's just not about people transport. It, along with barge and truck, make the modern US possible.

Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by wool_gather on Sunday September 22, 2019 @12:58PM (#21042401)
Yes; the tracks are owned (or maybe just operated) in a lot of places by the freight rail companies.

This is a bit of a tangent, but one of the most frustrating things about riding the passenger rail (I've experienced this most going through upstate New York) is being slightly behind schedule, and then falling far, far behind schedule by having to wait for a freight train using the same stretch of track to pass.

As I understand it, passenger trains are always supposed to be given priority. But in practice it never seems to work out that way. The dispatcher or whoever's making the decision often prioritizes the freight.

Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by protomyth on Sunday September 22, 2019 @04:40PM (#21043788)
Because, depending on what the schedule the freight is on and the terms, it can cost a lot of cash if the train is late. There are a lot of moving parts with freight, so passengers are no where near the priority.
Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by compuguy on Sunday September 22, 2019 @05:10PM (#21043976)
I get that, but technically Amtrak has priority. None of the freight railroads abide by that unfortunately....
Re:End of an American tradition: Amtrak kills the traditiona... by protomyth on Sunday September 22, 2019 @06:52PM (#21044496)
I think a great many more people would be affected if those freight railroads didn't get to go first.