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Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by api on Friday September 20, 2019 @10:23AM (#21026975)
I see a darker possibility. Maybe we are acting.

Maybe governments and oligarchs in richer more powerful nations have concluded in secret that the situation is hopeless and that it's too late to prevent major climate change, so they are deploying totalitarianism.

When I see Trump's push to build the wall, I think maybe the wall is not for today's migrant workers and trickle of refugees. Maybe it's to wall off America from millions of refugees fleeing climate change related catastrophes and the resulting political instability. Trump's bizarre floating of a Greenland purchase? Maybe Greenland will be more valuable when the ice melts. The push to bring back lower-margin manufacturing even at the cost of an expensive and economically dangerous trade war? Maybe the people behind Trump see a global melt down (pun intended) as leading to a world with less international trade and more animosity and they want to make sure we have our own manufacturing capacity under our control. (I see Trump as a figurehead with a certain faction of the intelligence and American oligarch community behind him. He's an actor playing a part.)

When I see China's social credit system I think extreme system of social control to deal with the unrest that's likely to come. Maybe China is adding another 250GW of coal because the situation is hopeless anyway and they've calculated that it's better to accelerate their economic development so they have more resources going into this period. If the ship is sinking who cares if you put another hole in it, especially if it buys you more lifeboats.

Maybe Russia is building nuclear cruise missiles and other doomsday weapons to defend itself from China. (Others too, but China is the scariest threat in this scenario.) It like Canada has a huge territory with a small population relative to its size, but unlike Canada it does not have a superpower ally neighbor. If climate change warms northern Russia it could become prime farm land. Russia also has massive natural resources including probably a ton of undiscovered rare Earths and lithium for high technology and batteries. I could see China with its 1.3 billion people living in low-lying areas that are likely to be flooded in a worst case scenario deciding that it's going to just seize the sparsely populated half of Russia to its North. Right now China with its tens-of-millions-strong army could walk right up there and take it and there's not much Moscow could do about it.

This scenario is not "the end of the world." The richer nations actually might not fare that bad. Some could even benefit. The poorer nations and their inhabitants could suffer mightily. It could be an unprecedented humanitarian disaster.

I'm not advocating this by any stretch. Don't shoot the messenger. This is the horrible Realpolitik outcome that we'll get if we choose defection over cooperation in a game theoretic sense.

Personally if this scenario unfolded I would advocate unification of the United States and Canada (to whatever extent is politically possible) and opening our borders to anyone without a provable criminal record. Let all those migrants head all the way up to the far North, settle it, and establish farms and industry. Brain drain from places like Nazi Germany, China, the USSR, etc. created the last American century, so maybe it could happen again. In any case the economic growth we would get from this would help us afford to do things like build the great New York and Boston sea walls, the system of locks and pumps to save much of Los Angeles, and New Miami.

We're unlikely to do that though. That's not how most people think in a scarcity or threat scenario.

Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by dougmwne on Friday September 20, 2019 @11:50AM (#21028031)
Not sure why you're being downvoted. This is actual pretty decent speculation(minus the conspiracy tinge).

Global warming is absolutely going to kick off a period of high geopolitical instability. Geopolitical in the classic sense of the geography. The borders of our countries, populations, alliances, and economic base are all tightly coupled to the natural resources of each country. Those natural resources are about to change rapidly. Instability in a single country (Syria) created a European refugee crisis. Every low latitude country is about to experience a simultaneous refugee crisis.

Our political and business leaders are not idiots, no matter how often we portray them that way. They have the best data. They need to in order to make decisions about how to remain in power or stay profitable. They do know what's coming. For them, this was never about the coral and the birds. Some have clearly concluded that there's nothing to be done but make hay while the sun shines.

Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by api on Friday September 20, 2019 @12:19PM (#21028345)
Thanks, but what "conspiracy tinge?" Planning for likely future conflict scenarios is what governments and militaries do. They have entire departments full of people who do it full time. It's not at all unreasonable to think they've looked at climate change and the possible outcomes and that powerful factions within government (and elsewhere) may have come to conclusions like what I wrote.
Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by dougmwne on Friday September 20, 2019 @01:00PM (#21028870)
You lead with the idea that people in power have made a secret decision to do away with democracy and deploy totalitarianism. This is by definition a conspiracy. The rest of what you said, plus what you just said about departments of people already looking at this I find quite realistic.

Someone else just posted this 10 year old video on the geopolitics of climate change. I wanted to make sure you saw it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc_4Z1oiXhY

Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by anigbrowl on Friday September 20, 2019 @02:33PM (#21029837)
While I'd say it's more of a tacit agreement than a 'here's the plan which we've each signed our names to' type conspiracy, it seems entirely reasonable to conclude that those with power and resources fully intend to conserve it - indeed, I'd argue that this is what political conservatives are motivated by these days, as opposed to legacies or institutions. In past times of apparent infinite possibility it was reasonable to believe the notion of endless trans-generational growth that justified what Plato called the 'noble lie', but when there's a sense that the ship is sinking the rich have no compunction about pushing others out of the lifeboats because that's what they're used to doing.
Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by MiroF on Friday September 20, 2019 @10:39AM (#21027162)
Russia has a substantially higher population than you are implying.

Also, you give those in power far too much credit. If they had actually concluded the situation was hopeless, we would be seeing large geoengineering investments right now

Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by dougmwne on Friday September 20, 2019 @12:09PM (#21028252)
I thought the bit about Russia was insightful. East of the Urals, Russia is very sparsely populated. Take a look at this border region between Russia and China to see just how underutilized Eastern Russia is for farming, especially once the growing season increases. The light area within the Chinese border is all intensely cultivated land. The darker area in Russia is wilderness.

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.4321743,133.5037235,409161m/...

Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by api on Friday September 20, 2019 @10:42AM (#21027205)
Re: Russia's population: it's aging, and relative to China? China could field an army larger than the entire population of Russia if they were sufficiently motivated.

Are there any geoengineering projects that would really work? What if we are on the precipice of a methane-driven feedback loop and military/intelligence secretly knows this?

In any case perhaps that's not how they think. The powerful nations of the world are still largely dominated by their militaries and military-type thinking, which leads people to think in terms of defense and strategic conflict not neutral engineering or cooperative approaches.

Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by seren on Friday September 20, 2019 @10:55AM (#21027361)
I found https://projectvesta.org/ interesting.

I am personally not totally convinced because the quantity of olivine that should be moved is greater that the oil we are currently moving annually, but still it looks slightly better than SO2 because there is no ocean acidification, from my layman perspective.

Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by wongarsu on Friday September 20, 2019 @11:40AM (#21027905)
>Are there any geoengineering projects that would really work?

For cooling earth dispersing sulfate particles in the upper atmosphere is generally believed to be economically and technologically viable [1]. For more predictable and controllable results we can deploy sun shades made of thin foil into orbit.

Alternatively we can develop the tech to be self sufficient in reasonable luxury on Mars or the Moon. Great for anyone with enough money to go there, and for the slightly less wealthy the tech will be applicable to make your mansion on earth more comfortable

I'll just mention how all three of those plans would benefit from cheap access to space. So if I had a few million from selling my start up and I was worrying about climate change I might start a rocket company. Or maybe produce electric cars to help turn this ship around instead. Maybe both.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratospheric_aerosol_inject...

Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by peteradio on Friday September 20, 2019 @11:32AM (#21027825)
> that's not how they think

I think this is the answer. I don't think the situation is as out of control as everyone is led to believe. It's just not being handled as everyone would believe. Imagine if it was possible to geoengineer our way out of climate change? Think about the powerful implications that would create in terms of ability to affect others climate situation around the world and what that means to those currently in power.

Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by MiroF on Friday September 20, 2019 @10:46AM (#21027260)
China's population is also aging.

Evidence suggests that solar geoengineering with SO2 would work.

Occam's razor I'm more likely to believe in just incompetence than a cabal of elites who know that geoengineering won't work without having conducted any real experiments

Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by arbitrary_name on Friday September 20, 2019 @11:30AM (#21027802)
https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/geopolitics/article/2100228/c...

>>A side effect of Beijing’s investment – an influx of Chinese migrants – is often perceived by locals as an expression of China’s de facto territorial expansion.

The article goes on to say that the scale of the migration is not actually that large, but it's an interesting tidbit.

Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by api on Saturday September 21, 2019 @12:17PM (#21036192)
Could be more of a foothold like America's hundreds of overseas military bases.
Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by onemoresoop on Friday September 20, 2019 @11:11AM (#21027565)
What time-frame are you basing your premise on? In the next decades up to half a century it is very unlikely for the geopolitical situation to change much, especially their geography. Granted, there will be coastal changes worldwide. In the next few centuries though things will naturally change, empires do rise and fall and it is quite hard to speculate that far. Who knows, maybe China or US or Russia may not even exist then in the shape and form they are now.
Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by dougmwne on Friday September 20, 2019 @11:56AM (#21028087)
There was just a projection that we could see a 7C global temperature increase in the next 80 years. Sea level rise is just one factor, and is probably the minor factor in comparison to changes in arable land, fresh water resources, and overall farming productivity that 7C will represent. There will be big losers and big winners in the next few decades if these projections hold true.
Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by rblion on Saturday September 21, 2019 @08:35AM (#21034967)
I've been thinking along very similar lines. This just makes more sense than the hopelessly optimistic scenarios of 'everyone giving up meat, adopting clean tech, getting along and sharing resources while we expand into space'. Ideally, this is what we want but anyone who has real-world experience dealing with people from all walks of life AND some respect for physics knows this is a LOT harder than it looks.

I believe WWIII is already happening, it's just not a typical war fought with soldiers. It's a battle of memes (unit of culture, much deeper than reddit memes) proliferated through media to divide, distract, delude the masses. Those in power intend to keep their power and are perfectly aware of the situation unfolding around the globe. They are making moves accordingly, the media doesn't know the long-con so they chalk it all up to mental illness and corruption. If they are all sociopathic, why would they reveal their plans to society? It would go against their deepest instinct for self-preservation.

Yes, the world's poorest regions will be devastated the most and there will be millions of migrants TRYING to move to America more than any other nation. By then, there will be many 'moats' in place to protect the American people. China is already moving people and capital into key regions around the globe (Suriname, next to Brazil) to capitalize on the situation as it unfolds. India will be hit particularly hard because of the amount of people in their country.

The global elite already have 'escape plans' like private islands and top-floor penthouses with guards in the lobby. Some of them care about what happens to the 'commonfolk', some of them don't. That's just the way it is.

The way to stay sane in all this is start with yourself, do what you can to be skillful and of service, build a life connected to nature, live off the land as much as possible, work remotely if possible, know how to live without tech if possible. This is all practical to me, I don't know how else to plan for 'retirement' other than this.

Re:Researchers are racing to find out why methane levels are... by api on Saturday September 21, 2019 @12:16PM (#21036185)
It's WWIV and it may have started on 9/11/01, which I have started wondering might have been a proxy attack. Don't know but it seems possible. WWIII was the cold war with all its proxy battles.

Full scale hot wars between major powers have been too Pyrrhic a scenario even for the winner since the bomb, so now they are a mix of propaganda, espionage, proxies, terrorism, and economic warfare. The meme stuff you mention is just newer propaganda techniques. Terror is really another propaganda technique.

As others have noted in my OP I perhaps made it sound too conspiracy-ish and organized. There is surely a bit of that but it's mostly people behaving in a short sighted, selfish, and reactive way.

I don't think tech will collapse. I think as nature collapses we may grow more reliant on it. Space is on the table too. It's another place to go, and very strategically powerful.

This future looks a ton like cyberpunk. The prophecies of William Gibson continue to unfold.

It sucks in that there were and are much better options, but collectively I am not convinced humans are intelligent or conscious enough to override the brain stem yet and choose them.

Oh well time to go fry up some krill wafers and jack back into the matrix.