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Re:AgileFall – When Waterfall Sneaks Back into Agile by namdnay on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @09:08AM (#21004974)
I would go futher and say that Agile exists for the particular constraints of UI software development. User stories, Product Owners and Agility break down if you're building core infrastructure
Re:AgileFall – When Waterfall Sneaks Back into Agile by vbtemp on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @09:26AM (#21005153)
Amen! When your product requires true engineering, agile just causes you to keep chasing your tail. Engineering systems requires an engineering process and discipline, and agile is just not up to the rigor.
Re:AgileFall – When Waterfall Sneaks Back into Agile by InternetOfStuff on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:19AM (#21006314)
Speaking as an aeronautical engineer, I disagree.

> Engineering systems requires an engineering process and discipline, and agile is just not up to the rigor.

Agile just means closing as many feedback feedback loops as you can as early as you can, and to preserve opportunities to course-correct for as long as you can. All this to keep the destructive effects of surprises (which are sure to catch you) as low as possible.

This is good engineering practice, plain and simple.

Re:AgileFall – When Waterfall Sneaks Back into Agile by 0x445442 on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @10:10AM (#21005599)
Agree with you and parent. "Agile", in it's current form, is managements holy grail pursuit of commoditizing software development. It's the latest management fad to circumvent the law of fast, good and cheap. Quality software is engineered and is expensive to develop.
Re:AgileFall – When Waterfall Sneaks Back into Agile by pflenker on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @09:43AM (#21005329)
I have seen Agile working with pure core infrastructure teams. How does the UI (or lack thereof) change the applicability of agile?
Re:AgileFall – When Waterfall Sneaks Back into Agile by namdnay on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @10:37AM (#21005865)
I would say it comes down to two things:

1 - Is it a domain where "user story" means something? 2 - Is it a domain where you can iterate fast?

Usually for UI these two conditions are met. From my experience, when talking about big infrastructure projects, they aren't

Re:AgileFall – When Waterfall Sneaks Back into Agile by aeorgnoieang on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @11:30AM (#21006419)
Doesn't infrastructure have users too? Why wouldn't 'user story' mean something to them?

All else equal, smaller or shorter feedback loops are better. And often shortening a feedback loop is worth considerable tradeoffs elsewhere.

It's certainly the case that being able to iterate fast may not be currently possible, but being able to do so, or even just being able to iterate faster should probably always be a priority (even if not the top one).

This all applies even to physical real-world infrastructure. I remember a story about a city somewhere (South America?) where the mayor (?) was able to shorten the feedback loop whereby roads were built or repaired. That seems like a good, even great, thing, even at somewhat considerable cost.

What kind of big infrastructure projects were you thinking of specifically?

Re:AgileFall – When Waterfall Sneaks Back into Agile by hugey010 on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @10:35AM (#21005844)
UI specifications are inherently incomplete and often require feedback from stakeholders. You're developing software for consumption by regular humans with feelings and emotions instead of for another computer or developer. Then there's the "implied" specifications which could be anything from current design fads, to legacy support, accessibility, usability, and plain old opinion.

Maybe a bad example, but it's basically mandatory to include a manpage for a cli utility, but do you always include drag & drop for a file uploader?

Re:AgileFall – When Waterfall Sneaks Back into Agile by rswail on Thursday September 19, 2019 @03:20AM (#21014054)
It depends on your definition of "user".

We have an API that is used by external systems, those systems (and developers) are our "users".

It's vital to think of API consumers as users, because it avoids the "REST is CRUD" attitude by focussing on the business/system functions that are being expressed, which leads to focussing on the Nouns, not the verbs of the business.