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Re:Richard M. Stallman resigns by seanmcdirmid on Monday September 16, 2019 @11:31PM (#20991124)
You didn’t address the case where two kids of the same age had sex. If the law cannot take that into account, both are responsible of a crime. Also many states have age difference exceptions as well (so an 18 year old can have sex with a consenting 17 year old); the federal government most definitely has this (4 year delta).
Re:Richard M. Stallman resigns by jakelazaroff on Monday September 16, 2019 @11:37PM (#20991154)
I'm not trying to comprehensively define what does and does not qualify as statutory rape, just explain the general logic behind "minors cannot consent".
Re:Richard M. Stallman resigns by seanmcdirmid on Monday September 16, 2019 @11:41PM (#20991195)
But you misrepresented the legal mechanism as lacking any exceptions. That clearly isn’t true.
Re:Richard M. Stallman resigns by jakelazaroff on Monday September 16, 2019 @11:53PM (#20991310)
I'm sure there's plenty I've omitted; again, I'm explaining why "minors cannot consent", not trying to comprehensively describe statutory rape laws in the U.S.
Re:Richard M. Stallman resigns by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @12:44AM (#20991645)
No, you specifically said:

> The law needs a bright and clear line, so you can know how not to break it.

But that isn’t true in reality for kids/adults close in age, nor is it a fixed line for every jurisdiction in the states. You actually have to know the law.

Re:Richard M. Stallman resigns by jakelazaroff on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @01:08AM (#20991780)
>> The law needs a bright and clear line, so you can know how not to break it.

> But that isn’t true in reality for kids/adults close in age, nor is it a fixed line for every jurisdiction in the states. You actually have to know the law.

Of course you have to know the law. But the law is well-defined, and you can figure out with 100% certainty whether you'd be breaking local statutory rape laws given your age and your partner's.

I suppose it's possible that there exists an unclear statutory rape law somewhere in the world, but most laws are written to avoid ambiguity. Can you cite a U.S. statutory rape law where it would be ambiguous whether or not sex qualifies as rape given the parties' ages?

Re:Richard M. Stallman resigns by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @01:20AM (#20991848)
Many states have exceptions for people who are married, also age isn’t the only factor that is taken into account (mental ability is as well). There are a lot of little things like that in these laws, but the biggest one is if you go inter jurisdictional (or even extra territorial) and federal law becomes involved (must be under 16, 4+ year age difference).

Anyways, given that the girl Minsky allegedly slept with was 17, I’m not sure why the underage argument came into play at all given what I know about federal law, at least. But then IANAL. Anyways, all the articles I’ve read about Minsky in this affair say trafficking was involved but not specifically child trafficking, so I wonder if the fed’s case was based more around the trafficking and coercion aspects and not the ages of the girls involved

Also, another thing to consider: age of consent is often different when prostitution is involved, so guy could have legal consensual sex with a 16 year old, but not if they or someone else paid for it.

Re:Richard M. Stallman resigns by jakelazaroff on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @01:31AM (#20991904)
This doesn’t really have anything to do with the discussion we’re having, which is that given a specific set of facts about two person it is possible to objectively deduce whether or not they are allowed to have sex.

If you have an example of a set of ambiguous statutory rape laws, please cite it. Otherwise, I think this conversation has reached a stalemate.

Re:Richard M. Stallman resigns by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @01:41AM (#20991955)
I never mentioned ambiguity, you did. I claimed that the laws were nuanced and not clear cut, and I guess you are just agreeing with that?
Re:Richard M. Stallman resigns by jakelazaroff on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @02:05AM (#20992098)
FWIW, “bright and clear” means that a law is objective and unambiguous [1], not that it’s simple or easy to apply. These laws may not be clear cut in that there are many conditions to evaluate, but they are clear cut in that you can deduce with certainly whether or not you’re breaking them.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bright-line_rule

Re:Richard M. Stallman resigns by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @03:28PM (#20999126)
Ok, I can agree we that. You might still need to be (or have knowledge of) a lawyer to determine if you are breaking the law, but at least it can be determined. I was just against the idea that these laws were somehow simple and easy to understand.
Re:Richard M. Stallman resigns by 007435throwaway on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @12:19AM (#20991486)
Do you also agree that minors should never be charged as adults if they commit heinous crimes?
Re:Richard M. Stallman resigns by megous on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @12:14AM (#20991460)
Here, two 15 year olds can have sex, legally. 15 year old and 17.9 year old can have sex. 15 and 18 can't, but do, because the law is demented - if you have two partners, say 15 and 17, as they age, they will first be able to legally have sex, then for a few years they will not, until again, they will.
Re:Richard M. Stallman resigns by eesmith on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @12:06AM (#20991408)
It should have been "Minors cannot consent, with few limited exceptions", or "minors below the age of consent for the sexual relationship they are having cannot consent."

Two common exceptions are: 1) similarity in age, and 2) sex with spouse, if married.

Exceptions can have their own exceptions. For example, if a 17 year old has sex with a 25 year old, it may be legal for an exception based on similarity in age. However, the law may also prohibit that exception if there is sex between a teacher and a student in the teacher's class.

So martinky24 was wrong in writing "Minor's cannot consent". It's an understandable wrong, as those exceptions aren't really that relevant to the topic at hand.

But jelliclesfarm is also wrong in thinking the argument is that minors are "non-beings". Minors are beings with fewer freedoms than adults. Depending on their age, they can be forced to attend school and to follow juvenile curfew laws. They can be prevented from purchasing alcohol, and from driving vehicles, or having a full-time job.

All of these remove some of their free agency. Just like restrictions on who minors are free to have sex with.

Re:Richard M. Stallman resigns by objectivetruth on Monday September 16, 2019 @11:48PM (#20991265)
Parent didn't address it because it doesn't need to be addressed.

In most states, the law is not written "it's illegal to have sex with a 15-year-old PERIOD." Instead, the law is usually "it's illegal FOR AN ADULT to have sex with a 15-year-old."

You are correct that -- for states that a) don't have the "for an adult" clause and b) don't have "Romeo & Juliet" clause -- the law as written DOES imply both kids are guilty. And I'd bet the cost of a nice dinner that, in some of those jurisdictions, both kids in a case like that WERE charged.