News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Mapping Ancient Rome by jriot on Monday September 16, 2019 @09:15AM (#20983667)
Is being a conservative consider being an extremist from your viewpoint?
Re:Mapping Ancient Rome by angry_octet on Wednesday September 18, 2019 @01:11PM (#21007510)
People are getting very precious over hyperbole. It is incongruous that this articule appeared in this forum. I keep wondering if it is an aspect of the 'Western Civilisation is best, and traces its roots back to the Roman Empire' school of thought. The far-right funding group, the Ramsay Centre, has been pushing for a Western Civilisation degree recently. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-26/anu-reveals-why-it-wa...

And no I wouldn't call many of the articles on the AC website conservative, they seems not just brazenly political but extremist. In the American Fox news bubble they may seem middle of the road, but outside it they seem really wacky.

Re:Mapping Ancient Rome by TomMarius on Monday September 16, 2019 @09:27AM (#20983771)
Isn't conservatism basically forcing people to not progress? Some might see that as a nearly violent act against their freedom. But really, what else is there to conservatism than "do not change"?
Re:Mapping Ancient Rome by cco on Monday September 16, 2019 @09:44AM (#20983912)
>Isn't progressivism basically forcing people to change? Some might see that as a nearly violent act against their freedom. But really, what else is there to progressivism than "you must change"?

Does the above re-wording make the problem with your characterization more obvious? I hope that it is obvious that both "progressive" and "conservative" philosophies are qualified by necessary and persuasive reasons to do one thing or the other. You should not change the status quo unless there is a good reason to do so, changing things carries the risk of making the current situation worse. Obviously the reverse is also true, you should always critically assess the current status quo because it may not be working as intended or has outsized negative impact on certain groups/institutions and we should change it.

I think your sentence is needlessly inflammatory, you're essentially straw manning the idea of conservative when we should always do our best to assume good faith in hackernews commenters until proven otherwise.

Re:Mapping Ancient Rome by TomMarius on Monday September 16, 2019 @09:50AM (#20983969)
The thing is, I am not a progressive in your understanding and by English sense of the word and I fully agree with your rewordization. In my country, progressives are comparable to US libertarians.

What you list as positive traits seem to be just rational politics. That's how it's known in my country, not as something conservative or else. So is that conservatism, being rational and pragmatic instead of... Irrational as progressives? Or is the key message of conservatism something else? The word conservative suggest a stop of change. I thought the message of conservatism would be more related to that.

Re:Mapping Ancient Rome by astine on Monday September 16, 2019 @10:05AM (#20984108)
"Or is the key message of conservatism something else?"

It depends on the conservative. It's a broad camp. Some people who call themselves 'conservative' are really just super reactionary people who hate any kind of change while others are reasonable people who want to be careful. US politics is highly partisan right now so there is a lot of conflict that has more to do with team or tribal affiliation (republican or democrat) than with actual ideological or philosophical differences.

Traditionally, though, conservatism as a school of thought originates with the writings of Edmund Burke on the French Revolution, where he pointed out, not that social and political change were bad in themselves, but that the Revolution in his opinion, was going too far too fast, breaking with too many traditions, and was thereby sowing the seeds of its own destruction. He argued that because the French Revolutionaries were attempting to replace widely held (in France at the time) principles of political legitimacy with novel principles of the political legitimacy, that politics in France would break down into practical power politics and would result in a military dictatorship. His prediction turned out correct, though people still debate his reasoning.

So, in this sense, conservatism is the idea that traditional political institutions have value because they are traditional political institutions. Change is not inherently bad, but must be undertaken carefully because if you overtly discredit the current institutions you court instability and the new system might not be better.

Re:Mapping Ancient Rome by TomMarius on Monday September 16, 2019 @10:09AM (#20984141)
I see. My country is 30 years old, post communist, so this is a thought I never had. Thank you.
Re:Mapping Ancient Rome by cco on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @12:52PM (#20997344)
It is very difficult to talk about both words given the amount of meaning that has been layered on top of both over the years. Generally conservative just means you are cautious around change, whereas progressives are much less cautious and more willing to experiment with new changes.
Re:Mapping Ancient Rome by PorterDuff on Monday September 16, 2019 @11:22AM (#20984964)
"Isn't conservatism basically forcing people to not progress? Some might see that as a nearly violent act against their freedom. But really, what else is there to conservatism than "do not change"?"

To some degree I suppose. Given the natural tendency in politics to produce two opposing groups the monikers always become overloaded. In eras where 'conservatives' represented the mercantile class, change went hand-in-hand with building the huge trading companies, the industrial revolution, modernization and 'rightsizing' of farming practices, etc. so it depends.

If, 20 years ago or before, you had told me that the West was practically going to civil war over the question of the value vs harm of mass third world immigration, I'd have laughed at you. The rest of the disagreements are window dressing at this point I think.

No doubt it's all very confusing to the Chinese.

Re:Mapping Ancient Rome by jriot on Monday September 16, 2019 @09:56AM (#20984022)
We are quick to see the negative, but conservatism also maintains keeping traditions and culture. I live in the Acadian region and we continue our traditions as they preserve our culture.
Re:Mapping Ancient Rome by thejohnconway on Monday September 16, 2019 @09:51AM (#20983972)
Totalitarian fascism and communism were both aggressively branded as progressive waves of the future in the first part of the 20th century. Change is often bad, and it is good to have level-headed conservatives resisting it.
Re:Mapping Ancient Rome by efa on Monday September 16, 2019 @09:45AM (#20983918)
>>forcing people to not progress

What?

Re:Mapping Ancient Rome by TomMarius on Monday September 16, 2019 @10:07AM (#20984117)
Sorry, I am not native speaker. I meant that they force people (e.g. With laws) to stop making progress.
Re:Mapping Ancient Rome by efa on Monday September 16, 2019 @02:58PM (#20987362)
I wasn't commenting on your English. I just thought it was strange to describe conservatives this way. In the US, true conservatives believe in smaller governments and less laws (more individual freedom). So I'm not sure how conservatism can stop individuals making progress.