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Re:China is increasingly using exit bans to bar Americans fr... by godelski on Sunday September 15, 2019 @12:51PM (#20978132)
I think what's happening here is a difference in how we view our governments.

In the West, and especially in America, we don't highly internalize "being American" (insert country). A lot of us just think of it as a circumstances. And right now there's a lot of distaste for what the government does. You'll probably find that most of the people are upset at their own country about exactly what you're upset about what America does (I know I am, and it looks like the parent does too. At least in the specific example).

We don't always condone what the government does. We don't see that as "us" but "them". You'll see many people speaking out against the government here when they do things we don't like (that's democracy in action. The belief that governments need to be put in check). So when we don't like something we try to get it changed, and this frequently works. More often than not actually, and the nots are usually that it takes longer than we want.

So an American won't see themselves as a hypocrite for calling out a country for doing something that America does if they also disagree that America does it. We just don't see our government in that way.

Edit: The parent is also making reference to a phrase that most of our mothers taught us: "just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right" (or some variation)

Re:China is increasingly using exit bans to bar Americans fr... by wonnage on Sunday September 15, 2019 @03:40PM (#20979097)
These are dubious claims considering the rise of populist leaders in various western democracies. It’s also annoying to see westerners comment on how “those” people think politically. Chat with any Chinese taxi (well, didi) driver for a bit and you’ll hear plenty of complaints and the occasional wild conspiracy theory, although they’re obviously careful not to go too far for their own good (didi started recording audio for passenger safety reasons).

This dissociation from government is also just generally disingenuous. You reap the benefits of all these policies you are supposedly against, and get to feel good about yourself because “well, I didn’t condone it”. Is this really any different from a Chinese police officer saying “I was just following orders”?

Re:China is increasingly using exit bans to bar Americans fr... by godelski on Sunday September 15, 2019 @09:19PM (#20980429)
In your complaint you even note the difference, so I'm a little confused.

> although [Didi drivers are] obviously careful not to go too far for their own good

I don't think any Westerner seriously feels that they could be jailed for anything short of telling some official that they're going to kill the president or some major leader. Person to person, you can say whatever. As much as I don't like the NSA's overreach I don't think they are listening or don't bother themselves with these acts (one of the two has to be true given the last decade).

So I'd say that's one big difference.

You're also talking about a time when America has record distaste and distrust for their politicians and president. It wasn't always like this and I think your argument would be fine if the majority of people supported the state, but that's just currently not the case.

> You reap the benefits of all these policies you are supposedly against

How do I not? Seriously. I didn't choose to be born in this country. I can't just not reap the benefits. There is no method for me to pick and choose my benefits based on my personal beliefs. So I'm not sure what you expect me to do. There's no country I can move to that is doing significantly better. The only action I can see is to attempt to change what is happening here. But if you see more that I can do I would appreciate the advice (I'm serious). I'm not resigning to my "fate". A defeatist attitude is a step backwards.

> Is this really any different from a Chinese police officer saying “I was just following orders”?

Yes. I'm not sure why you think the populous is the same as state actors (police). They are different entities. Also, "just following orders" isn't an excuse in the military, let alone international law. It doesn't hold up here in America. You can go to jail for committing crimes that you were ordered to commit. Doesn't matter if you're the head of the military following the president's orders (you may notice that generals do ignore presidential orders, see the Muller report) or a police officer following the chief. Authorization does not protect you in a court of law.

Re:China is increasingly using exit bans to bar Americans fr... by fucking_tragedy on Sunday September 15, 2019 @10:44PM (#20980713)
> So I'm not sure what you expect me to do. There's no country I can move to that is doing significantly better. The only action I can see is to attempt to change what is happening here.

The difference is that in the western world, you're allowed to make as much of stink as you possibly can about the system you disagree with. Surely, you'll meet opposition, but you and your family aren't going to be whisked away to a secret prison because you disagree with a particularly powerful person or political party.

Re:China is increasingly using exit bans to bar Americans fr... by chillacy on Sunday September 15, 2019 @11:53PM (#20980951)
> we don't highly internalize "being American"

True for a subset of people but drive out to the red states and that is definitely not true.

Re:China is increasingly using exit bans to bar Americans fr... by godelski on Monday September 16, 2019 @12:30AM (#20981090)
I used to live in a red state. Deep red. I learned a lot while there, having grown up in the deep blue. We're all talking past one another because we all make assumptions about the other side that just aren't true. So if you're in the deep blue, drive out and have a beer with the reds. But listen, don't fight. Conversely if you're in the deep red, do the same. You'll be surprised how much everyone agrees on things. The differences are how to reach the goals. But we're too caught up in being morally superior and winning.