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Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by refurb on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:26PM (#20946732)
It also results in a lot of empty units.

I was talking with a real estate agent in SF and he said it’s not unusual for landlords looking to sell their rent controlled building to just let units sit empty.

Why? Because it can increase the value of the building by hundreds of thousands of dollars. Losing out on $24k worth of rent each year is easy if you know it comes with an extra $300k in your pocket when you sell.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by pcwalton on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:40PM (#20946843)
Vacancy rates in San Francisco are very low compared to the rest of the state and the country. Rent control in SF is problematic not because it leads to vacancies but because the allowable increase is far too low, way below inflation.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by refurb on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:49PM (#20946922)
Vacancy rates are empty units that are available as a percent of all units available for rent. It doesn’t typically include units that aren’t available for rent.

The estimate is there are 100,000 empty homes in the SF area.[1]

I’ve seen an estimate of 20,000 for SF proper.

This [2] report to SF Planning states the number of empty units has doubled over time.

[1]https://www.sfgate.com/realestate/article/An-estimated-100-0... [2]http://ternercenter.berkeley.edu/uploads/CR_Final_2.3.19.pdf

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by dragonwriter on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:29PM (#20947230)
> I’ve seen an estimate of 20,000 for SF proper.

Even if that was added to the vacancy rate, that would still leave SF with around the national average (~7%) vacancy rate, and that's without counting the off-the-market housing anywhere else in the average (and not double counting actual on-the-market vacancies everywhere else, either.) Anyway you cut it, SF has a low vacancy rate/rate of empty homes.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by refurb on Thursday September 12, 2019 @12:56AM (#20948134)
Yeah, but 2% to 7% vacancy rate can mean the difference between rents that are $2000 per month and rents that are $4000 per month.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by ryan_lane on Thursday September 12, 2019 @11:33AM (#20952638)
SF added 2,000 jobs in 2019 alone. If those were put on the market even in a huge lump sum, there's no way it would cut rent prices in half. Maybe it would keep the prices from rising for a year or so?
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by pcwalton on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:51PM (#20946941)
It's low no matter what measure you look at.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by refurb on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:20PM (#20947594)
You'd also have to consider all the people that would be happy to rent out their in-law but decide not to because of rent control.

Not saying it would solve the housing crisis, but adding another 20,000+ units onto the market would certainly help.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by tmh79 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:45PM (#20946891)
yea, vacancy rates in SF are 2 - 3%, way way below the national median, and way below the california median as well
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by fountainofage on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:54PM (#20946969)
What units go into the vacancy rate? The comment seems to be saying these units aren't even listed as available. Would they still show up in the vacancy calculation? How do they get in there?
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by justinhj on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:29PM (#20946767)
Which is why vacant property tax makes sense for popular areas
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by refurb on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:21PM (#20947169)
So solve a problem created by regulations with more regulations?
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by rileymat2 on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @11:02PM (#20947467)
The presumption (right or wrong) is that the problem the first regulations solved is bigger than the problem that the regulations created. After seeing this new (smaller) problem, more regulations are applied creating a new even smaller problem. Making life better.

This may or may not be true, but that is the idea.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by rconti on Thursday September 12, 2019 @01:08PM (#20953840)
Rent control (regulation) creates more problem, I agree with that.

But I don't think it's fair to say that expensive housing, full stop, is a product of regulation.

There are desirably places to live that have housing that goes up at a good enough rate to be considered an investment. As long as there are people of sufficient means, some of them will add property to their portfolio of assets. A home that sits unused on prime real estate is, frankly, more of a drain on that community than $100,000 in cash sitting under a mattress going unused.

It's not perfect, and it IS a regulation, but penalizing people for hoovering up housing stock and then not using it, can benefit society.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by justinhj on Thursday September 12, 2019 @05:28PM (#20956660)
I'm not sure I'm in favour of rent control in the first place, but as a Vancouver renter I have seen vacancy tax really help with both house prices and rental availability. It also seems to be a fair tax, you are being taxed on a luxury that affects other people negatively.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by lbacaj on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:52PM (#20946954)
It’s not so easy, how do you prove this?

What if someone’s on vacation or has mail being delivered there etc. or comes in once in a while or Airbnb’s it’s much harder to impliment I think than it sounds.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by fountainofage on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:57PM (#20946995)
Well, what you do is get rid of prop 13 and do yearly appraisals. Then you just tax the property on what it's worth, and if a landlord refuses to rent, then the tax is now a vacancy tax.

The real problem is we're not taxing these properties at the true value they could provide to society, so a massive market inefficiency exists.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by eru on Thursday September 12, 2019 @07:01AM (#20950075)
A vacancy tax is indeed a bit more complicated.

You hint at the easier solution: repeal prop 14 and increase property taxes. A lot. Problem solved.

(If you want to be a bit more sophisticated, look into land value taxes.)

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by storco on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:12AM (#20960447)
Repeal prop13 and landlords will just pass the additional taxes on to their tenants. You'll only succeed in displacing a different group of people. And you won't be the one buying those homes at a sweet discount. Assuming some real estate mogul, rich kid, tech bro doesn't out bid you, you'll be paying all those mega property taxes every year too.

The real issue is that there is no central authority at the CA State or even Bay Area level planning growth holistically.

A company can hire 5,000 people tomorrow and they'll all just move here and look for a place to live, regardless of whether the city their employer is based in has any housing or not. That drives up rent. It creates the absurd traffic that we now get to enjoy every day of the week. It drives up the costs of goods and services.

Bay Area leadership and California leadership need to sit down and have a discussion with employers and cities about how to effectively and responsibly grow, and then move towards developing new infrastructure to support the plan that comes out of those discussions.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by rcpt on Thursday September 12, 2019 @12:04PM (#20953072)
I know that was a typo but CA Prop 14 is maybe the only thing worse than Prop 13 that CA voters ever passed.

If the fact that allowing landlords race-based leasing won the vote isn't enough to convince you that direct democracy is a stupid idea I don't know what is.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_California_Proposition_...

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by KibbutzDalia on Thursday September 12, 2019 @02:15AM (#20948544)
You are pure evil.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by fountainofage on Thursday September 12, 2019 @11:14AM (#20952392)
My landlord's building is worth $5 million ($5,000k) and he pays $3k a year in property taxes. He can evict all tenants and wait for someone to pay him $10 million for the property. He can wait for generations and never pay more than $4k a year because of how prop 13 is structured.

But you do you.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by zepto on Thursday September 12, 2019 @01:54PM (#20954318)
Sure but you also want to force anyone who has recently managed to buy a home and doesn’t have a huge extra income out of it and out of the area.

Your landlord may be able to evict one building’s worth of people, but your goal is to evict many more than that.

Your landlord is harmless by comparison.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by fountainofage on Thursday September 12, 2019 @04:00PM (#20955771)
Who said eviction? I said to charge to the property tax as it's valued today. Put a lien on the property and collect at time of transfer. There's no reason to evict people based on property taxes. Texas handles this just fine.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by zepto on Thursday September 12, 2019 @06:07PM (#20956973)
What happens when the tax liens outweigh the value of the property?
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by fountainofage on Friday September 13, 2019 @01:51AM (#20959536)
I'm trying to understand: are you saying landlords should be able to not pay property taxes on the current value, not get their property seized by the state if they don't pay property taxes, collect market rate rents from tenants, and also keep all of the profit from property value gains once they sell?

But ignoring that absurdity - property taxes are usually 2% of the property value. So you'd need to what... Not pay any property tax at all for 100+ years for that scenario to play out?

But let's say we allowed that to happen, and we're somehow sympathetic to that owner. You still don't evict anyone over property taxes. The next buyer will just have to work it out. See Detroit and its $1 homes with $20k in back taxes.

I guess the problem here is I don't see housing as something anyone should expect a guaranteed profit from. I view it just like anything else - there's real risk, and if you're going to privatize the profit, you damn sure better privatize the risk, too.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by zepto on Monday September 16, 2019 @03:48PM (#20987875)
Nobody is guaranteed a profit from housing.

Just like any other asset you can pay too much, buy something unsuitable, or mis-predict market forces.

Are you against private ownership of property outright?

Do you favor being taxed on the value of other things you own, how about your laptop, stove, etc?

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by fountainofage on Friday September 20, 2019 @12:50AM (#21023417)
I'm very much for private ownership of property, not sure why you would think otherwise. All I've said is to do what just about every other state does: if your property is worth $200k, you pay $2k that year in property taxes. If it's worth $2 million, you pay $20k. This isn't hard, and it isn't controversial.

Edit: just to appeal to authority: every single legitimate economist agrees with me on this as well.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by zepto on Monday September 23, 2019 @08:57PM (#21055427)
Why is a home different from everything else you own?

Other states may do this, but many other countries do not.

Why shouldn’t you be taxed on the assessed value of your laptop and car each year too? How about your savings account? Shouldn’t that be taxed?

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by inferiorhuman on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:44PM (#20947333)
What if someone’s on vacation or has mail being delivered there etc. or comes in once in a while or Airbnb’s it’s much harder to impliment I think than it sounds.

If you're putting the place up on AirBnB more often than not, the unit is not your primary residence and shouldn't be afforded benefits as such. If the goal of a vacancy tax is to increase rental supply, AirBnB does pretty much the opposite.

In California, and most of the US, property assessments are done by elected officials on an annual basis. In California the rate of increase is severely capped, but you're free to apply for a reduction if the value of your property decreases. If you're legitimately on vacation (or whatever), apply for an exemption. It's not that complex.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by cko on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:50PM (#20946927)
As a landlord this doesn’t make too much sense. The value of the property is net operating income divided by cap rate, so vacancies would lower value. It doesn’t matter what the gross scheduled rent is in that calculation.
Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by travisjungroth on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @10:01PM (#20947020)
You can also look at the value as discounted future cash flow. And in that calculation, an empty apartment that the buyer is confident they can fill quickly and rent for $5k is worth more than a full one renting for $4k.

Also, if you take your reasoning to the extreme then an empty apartment building has a negative value.

Re:California Approves Statewide Rent Control by refurb on Wednesday September 11, 2019 @09:55PM (#20946980)
If you have a tenant paying $1000 per month when market rate is $3000, an empty units drastically increase income and thus the value of the property.

It also opens it up to people who want to buy the building and move in.