Do you say this having semi-substantial first hand experience with psychedelics (your relatively conservative comment suggests perhaps not)? If not, then how could you compare, but if so, then I'm interested. Well, I'm interested anyways, but I'd be super interested.
> With caveats about the exact definitions of "they" and "results" and "comprehensively", I will go ahead and claim that the kind of results that people go to therapists to get can be got without using any external drugs at all, at all.
Depends what kind of a therapist visit you're talking about of course.
> Psychedelics just get you "high as a lord". They just shake up your thought-gland. Any therapeutic value they have is in the "set and setting", as Dr. Leary (the "LSD guy" himself) insists.
Maybe, maybe not. We don't know for sure exactly what they're doing.
> If you want to get high, or just experience your subjectivity getting all jangly, then yeah LSD is great. If you want to solve your personal problems you can do that without taking drugs.
Sometimes, sometimes not, depending on the situation and the individual.
> It's not impossible to use psychedelics as part of a therapeutic system, but it's important to realize that there's no magic cure in the acid tab or magic mushroom.
They're not a magical elixir, but thousands of people disagree on whether they've been a practically "magic" cure for their personal issues.
This Hawkins fellow sounds quite interesting, do you happen to know if there are any particularly good videos of him that you could recommend? I will check out Wilson as well.
Thanks for the interesting conversation and recommendations!
> Do you say this having semi-substantial first hand experience with psychedelics
I am extremely reluctant to give details in this (public and recorded) forum, even in today's relatively relaxed milieu, but, yeah, you can assume I know what I'm talking about in re: psychedelics. ;-)
FWIW, I was practicing a combination of Mantak Chia's meditations and manipulations of breathing and diaphram and perineal muscles along with what's called the "Core Transformation process". The specific incident involved a "blooming" of energy at or from the first chakra that proceeded up the spine and along the nerves, reaching the brain and expanding out into the aura. Physical and biological sensations were orgasmic but non-sexual (if that makes any sense) and there was higher perception (of which I can offer no description.)
As I said, the entire process was so intense and so beyond anything in Western knowledge that I did not attempt to do it again. I was getting (less dramatic) results anyway, and other life events were happening.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantak_Chia
https://www.coretransformation.org/
> They're not a magical elixir, but thousands of people disagree on whether they've been a practically "magic" cure for their personal issues.
I probably sound like I'm anti-drugs but that's not where I'm coming from. I'm saying that we can and should analyze what happens for those people and see if we can do the same thing for others without dosing them, that's all. I know people who have had great trips and people who wrecked themselves. I'm not denying that drugs can work I'm saying that there are safer ways. Some people get a lot out of xanax, eh?
> Depends what kind of a therapist visit you're talking about of course.
Indeed!
I happen to be a proponent of something called Neurolinguistic Programming, both because I understand the underlying structure of how it evolved and why it works, and because I was cured of clinical depression while under hypnosis by Dr. Bandler. One time treatment, lifelong severe depression disappeared. (And no drugs.) So I'm coming from a POV where there is already an effective therapy modality that can do the analysis and, in fact, already has. E.g. using hypnosis you can recreate the subjective experience of cannabis or even LSD or MDMA; you can also do things like dial back your degree of drunkenness from real alcohol you consumed. Plus a lot of other weird and awesome stuff.
> This Hawkins fellow sounds quite interesting, do you happen to know if there are any particularly good videos of him that you could recommend?
To me he seems like the real deal. I've only ever watched one video on youtube, I don't have it bookmarked, sorry. Just do a search. I get a lot out of his books. Start with "Power vs. Force", as they kind of build up in intensity.
> I will check out Wilson as well.
RAW isn't to everybody's taste, but IMO he is one of the most important thinkers and philosophers in the last N hundred years. He connected with the NLP people before he passed away, so there's a good chance that everything is going to turn out okay after all. :-)
In any event, if you are interested in intense internal experiences pick up a copy of Prometheus Rising and do the exercises. :-) Catch ya in the flow!
Thank you too.
I once (once) managed to have the "Kundalini" experience. It was wonderful. No drugs involved. Yet it was easily as psychedelic as any drug.
I didn't try to do it again because I'm relatively conservative and I am not one to experiment with my own body recklessly. I.e. if something had gone wrong you can't show up at the emergency room and tell them "It was Kundalini" and expect them to have a coherent, educated response. This is a huge biological and psychological "event" or process (akin in depth and significance to orgasm) that is entirely unknown to Western medicine and science.
Not only can the mind re-create drug states, it can also obviate actual drug states. (I.e. you can drink a pint of whiskey and remain sober.)
> any claims that they can achieve the same results (comprehensively) as psychedelics is a misrepresentation.
With caveats about the exact definitions of "they" and "results" and "comprehensively", I will go ahead and claim that the kind of results that people go to therapists to get can be got without using any external drugs at all, at all.
Psychedelics just get you "high as a lord". They just shake up your thought-gland. Any therapeutic value they have is in the "set and setting", as Dr. Leary (the "LSD guy" himself) insists.
If you want to get high, or just experience your subjectivity getting all jangly, then yeah LSD is great. If you want to solve your personal problems you can do that without taking drugs.
It's not impossible to use psychedelics as part of a therapeutic system, but it's important to realize that there's no magic cure in the acid tab or magic mushroom.
Just to wrap up, let me recommend "Sex and Drugs: A Journey Beyond Limits" by Robert Anton Wilson http://rawilson.com/sexdrugs.html