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Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by tenebrisalietum on Thursday September 05, 2019 @02:51PM (#20889667)
What's the advantage of this over a simple hardware interface (which should be really simple since I thought NVMe was basically just a PCIe node) that directly exposes the flash and then let the application/filesystem/whatever layer handle it?
Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by duskwuff on Thursday September 05, 2019 @03:17PM (#20889875)
Nobody wants to deal with raw flash. It's awful.

The error rate of raw flash is incredibly high -- it takes loads of error correction to make it reliable, especially with modern MLC and QLC memories -- and the structure of flash erase blocks means that it doesn't support random-access writes. A proper flash translation layer, implemented in hardware, means that software can forget about all the strange features of flash and use it as general-purpose block storage.

Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by floatboth on Thursday September 05, 2019 @04:21PM (#20890329)
Well, on the other hand, better to have the ability to deal with it rather than have everything obfuscated in unfixable proprietary firmware…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE2KDzZaxvE

Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by adtac on Thursday September 05, 2019 @05:19PM (#20890723)
If anyone else is interested in understanding the internals of flash memory, see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7JLXs5es7I (I was curious to see why flash memory has error rates and wears out on multiple writes.)

You may need a basic background in solid state physics for some parts.

Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by tenebrisalietum on Thursday September 05, 2019 @05:14PM (#20890693)
I know how flash works. Linux, for example, supports all the "weirdness" of flash with an MTD module which is low-resource enough for single-core sub 1GHz routers with 16MB and 32MB of RAM to handle. I don't see how that is a burden to a 32-core or higher amd64 architecture CPU in a database server whatsoever.

And SSDs already abstract that without adding a key-value store on top of it.

Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by duskwuff on Thursday September 05, 2019 @06:53PM (#20891376)
The Linux mtd stack is incredibly primitive by today's standards. It's primarily targeted at small SLC flash devices, like the ones you're describing that might be found in a small embedded device, not the large MLC (or beyond) devices that are used in modern storage.

It's telling that high-end embedded Linux devices, like Android phones, typically use storage devices which implement their own translation layer, like eMMC or NVMe devices, not raw flash.

Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by wtallis on Thursday September 05, 2019 @05:27PM (#20890789)
> Linux, for example, supports all the "weirdness" of flash with an MTD module which is low-resource enough for single-core sub 1GHz routers with 16MB and 32MB of RAM to handle.

Managing 16MB of SLC NOR flash is trivial for a 580MHz MIPS core with 32MB of DRAM. Managing 16TB of TLC NAND is completely different. There's a reason that SSDs almost always have 1GB of DRAM for every 1TB of NAND.

Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by ClumsyPilot on Thursday September 05, 2019 @07:49PM (#20891683)
I don't think my router's 16MB of flash are optimised for performance. Additionally, i will need an implementation for windows, an implementation for Linux, one for openBSD. Then there are many different kinds of flash memory on the market, do you really want to debug why your OS is loosing data with a new SSD that uses some weird flash memory?
Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by sneystein on Friday September 06, 2019 @04:08AM (#20893895)
It usually isn't implemented in hardware, but in firmware(software) on the storage device. It's still just as messy, but now no one can fix it.
Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by mc32 on Thursday September 05, 2019 @04:07PM (#20890238)
Are modern systems much different from the initial M-sys TrueFFS?
Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by Quenty on Thursday September 05, 2019 @02:53PM (#20889695)
The article explains it. You offload a lot of the processing required by the CPU onto the SSD, and you minimize read writes for the SSD architecture, reducing emulation requirements.
Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by zzzcpan on Thursday September 05, 2019 @03:11PM (#20889830)
Adding more dedicated hardware that does what you can do on the hardware you already have is not necessarily an advantage.
Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by brirec on Thursday September 05, 2019 @04:23PM (#20890342)
Not necessarily, but often enough that the most expensive part in a mid range or high end gaming PC is an accelerator card meant to offload certain forms of computation that the CPU can't do as fast...

Or perhaps the h.264/h.265 codecs built into modern CPUs and GPUs?

And this isn't at all a new phenomenon, either. We've been using accelerators and coprocessors (as they were often originally known) for decades.

Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by amerine on Thursday September 05, 2019 @03:35PM (#20890011)
Special purpose silicon is almost always faster and offloading stacks of IO cycles from the main cores is definitely a great thing.
Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by comboy on Thursday September 05, 2019 @04:06PM (#20890235)
Latency matters. You can execute instructions much faster from firmware on the SSD and higher abstraction level instruction usually translates to many low level instructions.
Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by tyingq on Thursday September 05, 2019 @02:54PM (#20889711)
CPU offload. No futzing with blocks. Just send a key and value.
Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by amerine on Thursday September 05, 2019 @03:36PM (#20890020)
Then unplug the drive, fly it to Amsterdam, plug it in and read away.
Re:Samsung Announces Key-Value SSD Prototype by gmueckl on Thursday September 05, 2019 @03:51PM (#20890120)
Never understimate the bandwidth of a plane full of SSDs hurtling through the sky?