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Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by mrkeen on Sunday September 01, 2019 @03:20PM (#20854171)
"Proper" (haha, yes I know) agile is anti-dogma.

You throw out the rituals ("processes and tools", "plans") when they don't work. That's called a retro.

How do you know if you're doing it right? You'll have "working software". That's a pretty subjective idea, so you'd better have someone to help you judge that, i.e. a "customer".

Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by ch_123 on Sunday September 01, 2019 @03:29PM (#20854240)
> How do you know if you're doing it right? You'll have "working software".

This is _exactly_ the problem - agile is never defined by itself, it is defined in terms of some desirable outcomes. Project was on time and succesful? Great victory for agile. Project failed? Need more agile in the future.

In my experience, all this is used as a smoke screen by management types who have no real idea what they are doing to externalize their own accountability.

Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by AnimalMuppet on Monday September 02, 2019 @04:57PM (#20861721)
> agile is never defined by itself, it is defined in terms of some desirable outcomes.

In some ways that's appropriate, because nobody actually cares about being agile. They care about shipping working software on time. So the real essence of agile is asking "How can we ship working (or closer) software faster?", and adjusting your process in response. If you aren't at least willing to adjust your process, you aren't doing agile.

Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by UK-Al05 on Sunday September 01, 2019 @04:19PM (#20854606)
Agile = reflect and adapt.

Replace agile word with that in your paragraph and it makes sense without sounding silly.

If you've done well you've probably learned and adapted.

If you havent done well, you probably need to reflect and work how to do it better next time.

Things arnt 'proper' agile when they are not about adapting but instead following a specific process your team cant change.

Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by Melchizedek on Sunday September 01, 2019 @05:41PM (#20855140)
So we as developers have the power to throw out things like daily stand-ups and sprints? And if we don't have that power, we're not being agile?

Cool, tell that to your "scrum master" next time you see him.

Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by UK-Al05 on Sunday September 01, 2019 @06:50PM (#20855535)
Yes, as a team you should be able to make that decision. A good scrum master would want you experiment and improve if there is reason behind it.

The key thing is that the changes have to make things better. You should be able try those things and see if they improve things.

Lots of teams use kanban, and some teams mob. If you mob as a team what's the point in standups?

What's the point in sprints, if your continously improving, continously releasing, continously getting feedback and able to forecast well without them? Your better than scrum in my opinion then.

Scrum is a bit basic these days, but it's a good baseline start from. Thats the problem with a lot scrum purists. They will never get beyond a fairly basic level of performance.

Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by stcredzero on Sunday September 01, 2019 @05:20PM (#20854993)
If you've done well you've probably learned and adapted.

If you havent done well, you probably to reflect and work how to do it better next time.

In that case, you can also replace "Agile" with "Kung-Fu!" Actually, I'm serious. There are various anti-philosophies in art and the martial arts which say something like this.

Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by UK-Al05 on Sunday September 01, 2019 @05:34PM (#20855089)
Yes. It's been rediscovered thousands of times.

OODA loop, plan do check act, kaizan etc

The core is the same.

Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by eternalban on Sunday September 01, 2019 @05:35PM (#20855102)
My impression has always been that agile was the answer to to the "managing developers is like herding cats" problem.

Now the kittens do stand ups everyday and meow on cue. It's a success for management.

Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by mrkeen on Sunday September 01, 2019 @04:26PM (#20854672)
That's not what I mean. I'm not using the term "working software" as "great project success". I mean it as something executable that you can develop, test, and get feedback on.

The software will be slow and buggy and do the wrong thing. If you find this out in month 1, then that's great. If you start with 2 months of careful planning to make sure you don't get it wrong, you'll find out it's wrong in month 3.

Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by crimsonalucard on Sunday September 01, 2019 @03:22PM (#20854185)
Do retros allow you to throw out agile and retros?

In practice I find retros to be a special place where engineers can vent their discontent and nothing will ever be done about it.

Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by mrkeen on Sunday September 01, 2019 @03:58PM (#20854463)
I worked somewhere where we made a conscious decision at a retro to not do them so often. But to be honest that was probably the most agile place I've been at. But perhaps good retros are the exception, not the rule.

At the place I worked, we started with a pretty regimented scrum - Monday morning planning poker, fixed-length sprints, which were closed and groomed, etc. I hated that crap. There was also a tech lead bully that insisted on doing things his way, and would use the code review process to keep other people's code out of the system. It was a real death march. By the time we had the basics of the system running, it was a dozen layers of synchronous blocking code where simple REST requests would take between 2 and 60 seconds to complete.

Eventually the bully left, and after that we eventually wore our (non-tech) team lead down into getting rid of discrete sprints and planning poker, and the devs tended towards just 'working on the next thing'.

I think the biggest factors we had in our favour were:

1) The team lead (pretty much the boss, too) was not technical, so he had no choice but to leave the tech decisions to us.

2) The tech bully left us in such a shitty state that it became obvious we'd need big changes, rather than token ones.

3) We got quite a bit of rapport happening and eventually the team lead understood that we actually wanted to get the system working nicely. The devs also got better at pitching ideas, like why a certain large changes were necessary.

I can't imagine we would have gotten to steer the ship in any meaningful way without a bunch of factors lining up like that.

Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by EdwardDiego on Sunday September 01, 2019 @04:33PM (#20854712)
In practice I found retros very useful in my last Scrum team because we iterated on our process to make retros useful.

#1 was clustering similar sad faces.

#2 was as a team, agreeing on actions we could take on those clusters.

#3 was tracking how well we did on performing those actions.

If it's just venting, it's not overly useful.

Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by UK-Al05 on Sunday September 01, 2019 @04:39PM (#20854751)
In theory if the retros arnt providing anything useful then yes.

I would try to fix the retros though or have some kind of alternative to allow the team to change the process.

Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by bearmobius on Sunday September 01, 2019 @03:57PM (#20854455)
Lately I've started to think Agile also bears some striking similarities to Communism. It has its dogmatic adherents, and it actually sounds good on paper. It's just that everywhere I've seen it tried, it fails. And the reason given is always "that wasn't proper Agile".

Like other dogmas or ideologies, it's unfalsifiable. No amount of real-world experiments can invalidate it if the reason is always "that wasn't real Agile".

Re:Agile as a full-featured religious dogma (2016) by mrkeen on Sunday September 01, 2019 @04:33PM (#20854716)
What wasn't working for you, and what did you change?