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Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by jdietrich on Saturday August 31, 2019 @09:20PM (#20849929)
> It's unsettling to learn that a life-saving surgery can compromised by a tech who didn't spend a few extra minutes cleaning the tools properly.

Why are the devices so difficult to clean? Why are processes in sterile processing units so chaotic? Why aren't decontamination errors being picked up by quality control?

It's never the fault of the guy on $8.50 an hour. The buck stops with management; the buck always stops with management.

Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by chrisseaton on Saturday August 31, 2019 @09:29PM (#20849976)
> Why are the devices so difficult to clean?

How would you clean prions off surgical devices? This isn't a case of workers not bothering to use soap, you know.

Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by tomxor on Saturday August 31, 2019 @09:42PM (#20850023)
prions are currently a problem for basically any equipment, but they are rare, and they are not this problem - this is an issue of basic sanitation of modern, intricate and difficult to sanitize devices causing bacterial infections.
Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by justin66 on Sunday September 01, 2019 @12:30AM (#20850480)
Steris sterilizers (think sort of dishwasher-type devices with a highly specialized detergent) can do this, I believe. I'm pretty sure there's still room for error with devices that are complicated enough that they might not be completely cleaned by the flow of the cleaning chemical, which is a problem with almost any cleaning method you use on that kind of equipment.
Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by lookACamel on Wednesday September 04, 2019 @10:44AM (#20877605)
Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by sansnomme on Saturday August 31, 2019 @10:34PM (#20850201)
Plasma probably. Again metal only.
Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by Farradfahren on Sunday September 01, 2019 @04:22AM (#20851151)
High energy ultra violett light? Yes, it destroys plastics- and only reaches surface layers. But if you get it to the evaporation stage and keep it up long enough - cleansed is cleansed.
Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by ThrustVectoring on Sunday September 01, 2019 @02:52AM (#20850878)
Management, or maybe the manufacturer. Ultimately the manufacturer is responsible for providing tools that are fit for purpose, and one of the parts of that is being able to reliably sterilize them for repeat use.
Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by rscho on Saturday August 31, 2019 @10:49PM (#20850237)
Because people consider other people much less important than their new car. Hence, more chaos and less quality control because "it only happens to poor people and others, right? Right?"
Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by b_tterc_p on Saturday August 31, 2019 @09:26PM (#20849960)
> It's never the fault of the guy on $8.50 an hour. The buck stops with management; the buck always stops with management.

Not really. Persistent problems are management’s fault. Individual errors are made by individuals.

Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by jdietrich on Saturday August 31, 2019 @10:36PM (#20850206)
There's no such thing as an "individual error" - every individual is operating within a management structure. Every error has the chance to be prevented before the fact or mitigated after the fact by proper quality management. Even if that individual is a lazy idiot who shouldn't be trusted with pointy scissors, whose fault is it for hiring him?

All errors exist on a spectrum of foreseeability and severity. Is it foreseeable that someone might miss a spot when cleaning? Yes, clearly, even if they're exceptionally diligent and well trained. The odds of them making that error diminish with training, skill and care, but they never reach zero. How severe are the likely consequences of that error? In this case, someone could die of sepsis.

You can't just shrug and say "the guy who was supposed to clean the device didn't do it properly, it's not our fault". Why did that error happen? What could management have done to reduce the probability of that error? How could that error have been detected before a patient was put at risk? From reading the story, I think it's abundantly clear that many opportunities to reduce risk are being missed due to poor management of the process.

Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by b_tterc_p on Sunday September 01, 2019 @10:21AM (#20852419)
You’re saying that management can influence events and that’s true. But management can minimize risk to more than acceptable levels and the individual can still screw up due to their own folly. This really feels like a dumb argument, that your mistakes must be the result of higher order systems.
Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by smallnamespace on Sunday September 01, 2019 @01:04AM (#20850557)
Are you willing to extend the 'no such thing as individual error' philosophy to management as well?

Managers also exist inside a structure, one which they may not have created themselves, or where they lack power to make unilateral changes. Managers also often work inside highly competitive environments (e.g. capitalism) where much deviation from the current norm can be disastrous for both the organization and themselves.

At some point, any practical moral philosophy needs to direct some individual to change their actions. Morality without responsibility is powerless.

Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by jdietrich on Sunday September 01, 2019 @05:11AM (#20851280)
> Are you willing to extend the 'no such thing as individual error' philosophy to management as well?

Ultimately it's the CEO's responsibility to lead a culture of safety. If the current norm is causing death and illness, it's their moral duty to push back against it.

Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by b_tterc_p on Sunday September 01, 2019 @02:25PM (#20853809)
Ok but the question isn’t about a norm of death and illness, it’s about a single one off individual error
Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by 0xcde4c3db on Saturday August 31, 2019 @09:39PM (#20850009)
Even with an individual error, the system/office/company put the individual in the position to make the mistake, and then didn't provide adequate accommodation or procedure to prevent the mistake.

Not every individual mistake can reasonably be averted with changes to the system, but it's vitally important that we at least ask the question of how the system failed. Otherwise we're virtually guaranteed to wind up with a pile of "unrelated incidents" that might have been prevented at little to no cost.

Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by chmod775 on Sunday September 01, 2019 @06:46AM (#20851558)
Pay $8.50 an hour, expect work worth $8.50 an hour.

Management should have no reason to expect high standards at those prices.

Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by b_tterc_p on Sunday September 01, 2019 @10:18AM (#20852402)
So... can management acknowledge individual errors if they’re paid highly?
Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by chmod775 on Monday September 02, 2019 @07:25AM (#20858401)
Yes.

But when someone is earning $8.50 an hour, and the manager overseeing them earns $100 an hour, I know who is responsible for the work.

Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by b_tterc_p on Monday September 02, 2019 @09:00AM (#20858836)
Ok but you’re kind of just throwing numbers into the mix here to justify your position. What if the manager makes $12.50 an hour? Or $10?

The notion that people with low wages can’t be held accountable for errors EVER is... not reasonable

Re:Filthy surgical instruments: a threat in America's operat... by chmod775 on Monday September 02, 2019 @11:37AM (#20859745)
> What if the manager makes $12.50 an hour? Or $10?

Well, who manages that guy? Even if literally everyone but the CEO barely earns a living wage, and you end up with results like those, I still know who is to blame.

Just go up the chain until you find someone who is paid enough to shoulder responsibility, even if it means you have to go all the way up to upper management.