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Re:Microsoft Is Killing ePub Support in Edge Classic by userbinator on Thursday August 29, 2019 @11:39PM (#20835803)
Invasive telemetry and profiting from ads instead of selling software is definitely the "Google way" and it's been taking over MS since at least the beginnings of Windows 10 (remember the forced "free upgrade"?)
Re:Microsoft Is Killing ePub Support in Edge Classic by cjarrett on Friday August 30, 2019 @01:18PM (#20840530)
I mostly view this as the turn from SDET to Quality. SDET used to do both telemetry and quality testing, coordinating with devs frequently. Now Quality mostly coordinates with PMs. Satya as Azure head had success via this method, so it's copied throughout the entire company
Re:Microsoft Is Killing ePub Support in Edge Classic by mips_avatar on Thursday August 29, 2019 @11:57PM (#20835874)
Do you support telemetry if it makes the product better, and not used for ad targeting?
Re:Microsoft Is Killing ePub Support in Edge Classic by alxlaz on Friday August 30, 2019 @02:59AM (#20836459)
Not parent but it's something that's been bugging me for a while (especially since I work in a field where you often have to debug based on field logs from three weeks ago from a device halfway across the world). My two cents, I think telemetry is OK if:

* It has a retention policy that ensures a data breach five years down the road won't compromise five years' worth of relevant data. 30 days of full data + maybe an year of relevant analytics (but no detailed data) are more than enough to improve software. Five years' worth of data, even if it's not strictly speaking personal data, can make identity theft trivial.

* The processes and criteria for who gets to access that data and in what manner are clear, transparent, enforceable and can be subjected to appeal by any user. Can I be reasonably sure (i.e. based on public, legally-binding statements from Microsoft) that, for instance, a Microsoft employee who has a beef with me won't be able to stalk me based on that data?

* For a large system or a piece of hardware, if I can have a reasonable assurance that, at least in the short-term (1-2 years), the data won't end up being used for ad targeting. An OS or a piece of hardware is something that you don't switch that often. If I make a purchase, I'd like to be sure that the reasons why I made it remain valid for a while.

"Makes the product better" is a great reason and I'd wholeheartedly support that, as long as I had an assurance that my data is handled responsibly.

I'm just sayin' -- if I break the terms of doing business with Microsoft (e.g. by using a pirated copy), there's a good chance that some DMCA organization comes knocking at my door and the best I can hope for is an out-of-court settlement that ruins me. I sure as hell expect that, if Microsoft breach the terms of doing business, someone can go knocking at their door and the best they can hope for is an out-of-court settlement that ruins them. That's why I insist on "legally binding". A blog post that says we totally don't spy on you is something that you can breach without any real consequences.

Until that's the case (or, you know, until there's no data being siphoned...) I can do my work on Linux just fine, I don't need no damn WSL :-).

Re:Microsoft Is Killing ePub Support in Edge Classic by userbinator on Friday August 30, 2019 @07:36AM (#20837591)
I think "make the product better" is really an excuse, considering what has actually happened with the changes in Win10. The most useful changes have been suggestions that came from the users themselves (of which they ignore most of them anyway), not by watching them. "The telemetry told us to do it" is a convenient excuse for making unwanted changes, because everyone else doesn't have access to the data and even if they did, it could still have been massaged to fit their narrative.
Re:Microsoft Is Killing ePub Support in Edge Classic by lewisj489 on Friday August 30, 2019 @02:57AM (#20836451)
Not sure why you're being downvoted. Telemtery can be a invaluable tool for a whole bunch of reasons. It should, of course, be optional.

I think only 1 type of telemetry shouldn't ask for permission, a quick, anonymous ping to say it's been installed.

Re:Microsoft Is Killing ePub Support in Edge Classic by tremon on Friday August 30, 2019 @04:23AM (#20836748)
a quick, anonymous ping

Sure, but for it to be anonymous it should not contain the sender's IP address. That probably means an UDP message with nulled source ip, which runs foul of many ISP's egress filters (and rightly so).

So, realistically speaking, there is no such thing as an anonymous ping. Or am I missing an obvious solution here?

Re:Microsoft Is Killing ePub Support in Edge Classic by jefftk on Friday August 30, 2019 @06:52AM (#20837400)
You could have an aggregation service, run by a trusted independent non-profit. It could have a strong privacy policy and external auditing.
Re:Microsoft Is Killing ePub Support in Edge Classic by ZiiS on Friday August 30, 2019 @04:15AM (#20836723)
How would we know, the is no documented case of this ever happening?
Re:Microsoft Is Killing ePub Support in Edge Classic by tannhaeuser on Friday August 30, 2019 @05:20AM (#20836992)
No. Because keylogging and capturing other UI events can be used to reconstruct what you're working on. It thus fails basic obligations the law puts onto you when working with customer's documents, data, or code. Using telemetry, and implementing telemetry in your app is just asking for getting sued big time.
Re:Microsoft Is Killing ePub Support in Edge Classic by justinclift on Friday August 30, 2019 @12:53AM (#20836051)
Only if it's optional, and can be turned off completely.
Re:Microsoft Is Killing ePub Support in Edge Classic by andrewbinstock on Friday August 30, 2019 @03:36AM (#20836590)
And if its presence is made clear upfront, rather than buried deep in a Terms of Use contract.
Re:Microsoft Is Killing ePub Support in Edge Classic by coldtea on Friday August 30, 2019 @06:39AM (#20837345)
That should be up to the user to decide.

If millions want to provide telemetry that's enough to make the product better. Why have other millions who don't want suffer it?

Re:Microsoft Is Killing ePub Support in Edge Classic by raxxorrax on Friday August 30, 2019 @04:14AM (#20836719)
IF it is disabled by default and getting rid of it is not an enterprise feature... sure.